Interviewer: And on today's show we have God. God, the question that must be on everyone's lips is: does Hell really exist?

God: It's still in the design phase. And to be frank, I really can't be bothered doing anymore work on it.

Interviewer: And whay's that?

God: Well, there doesn't seem any point in actually building it.

Interviewer: And why's that?

God: Because, you dickhead, no-one wants to go there.

(January 10, 2012 at 4:17 am)Godschild Wrote: You have the freewill to reject God's sacrifice he made for you. There are no strings attached, that's just the way you have chosen to view it because you have chosen not to believe. It all falls on your shoulders.

So let me get this straight. You're telling us we must either accept the gift of freewill to disobey God, or accept the gift of his sacrifice?

If we reject his plan for freewill we risk going to hell for living in opposition to god's purpose. But, if we deny his plan for salvation we risk going to hell for snubbing his grace and mercy. If we accept his gift of freewill we're condemned for using it. What kind of being punishes someone with hell-fire for using their freewill to make a choice? How are these blessings or virtues? They're burdens, vices, no, curses. We're damned if we do damned if we don't.

(January 10, 2012 at 6:40 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(January 10, 2012 at 4:17 am)Godschild Wrote: You have the freewill to reject God's sacrifice he made for you. There are no strings attached, that's just the way you have chosen to view it because you have chosen not to believe. It all falls on your shoulders.

So let me get this straight. You're telling us we must either accept the gift of freewill to disobey God, or accept the gift of his sacrifice?

If we reject his plan for freewill we risk going to hell for living in opposition to god's purpose. But, if we deny his plan for salvation we risk going to hell for snubbing his grace and mercy. If we accept his gift of freewill we're condemned for using it. What kind of being punishes someone with hell-fire for using their freewill to make a choice? How are these blessings or virtues? They're burdens, vices, no, curses. We're damned if we do damned if we don't.

You do not have to accept anything you do not want to, that's what freewill is all about, please try and show you are better than trying to twist others words around. Do not be like some of these young ones that only can argue a point by twisting words around.

EDIT: I think I'll post this in the Blasphemy II thread as well. It's good stuff.

Quote:Shows how little you know of freewill and God for that matter, God does not torture and you can not show me that through the scriptures, you determine your destiny.

rev.j Wrote:Liar. You havent read your bible. Jesus said there would "be wailing and gnashing of teeth". After all, it was Jesus who said that a place of "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" would also be the place of the "everlasting punishment" of multitudes of people (Matthew 25:41,46) in an age to come.
So yeah GC, God doesnt torture people, he "utilizes alternative punishment techniques". Because weeping and gnashing of teeth of everlasting fiery punishment for those who God hates. And who are these? "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

So yeah, an eternal "punishment" in a lake of fire and brimstone where we weep and gnash our teeth is not anywhere near TORTURE...oh no. Calling it torture would make Jesus look bad.

You make the decision about your eternity, God gives you what you choose. Can't get much more fair than that. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is for the wrong decision one makes, weeping and gnashing of teeth is about sorrow not pain.

Quote:How do you see foreknowledge to be control over another.

rev.j Wrote:We have all explained it to you in detail through several pages of posts, yet you are still incapable of understanding.

No you have not, the only thing I've heard out of you is this, "just because," an answer that would come from a two year old.

[/quote]

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(January 10, 2012 at 1:00 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(January 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: Freewill

Could you remind us as to what hapened to A & E the first time they used their free will?

As I recall, God threw a fit all over them and us with original sin and all those other woes that he surprised A & E with.

Am I wrong?

Regards
DL

Adam and Eve disobeyed God it is as simple as that, God never through a fit. If you had the ability to understand a story of love and caring you would be able to understand the story of Adam and Eve. Since you do not understand the story that says what about you.

(January 10, 2012 at 3:18 am)Godschild Wrote:

(January 9, 2012 at 8:26 pm)Aegrus Wrote:

(January 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: Freewill

I have no idea why I'm bothering to respond to this. . .

I'll say it slow, so you can understand it.

If. . .god. . . is. . . infinitely. . . persuasive. . . or. . . omniscient. . . there. . . is. . . no. . . free. . . will.

You missed the entire point of the original post. Good job.
Let's say you're right, and god exists and is omnipotent and omniscient. (You know what those words mean, right?) It's not your choice to believe in him or not, because he made you the way you are, he made all of your life experiences, and he already knows what you will end up believing. If you don't see the logic here you're an idiot.

You call me an idiot and you wrote this, "It's not your choice to believe in him or not ... he already knows what you will end up believing." Now the last part of your statement shows I have a choice, so who is it that is an ...

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(January 9, 2012 at 8:45 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: How can someone say "My god gives us all freewill" on one hand, then on the other hand say "This is a book describing how my God wishes you to live your life. If you dont do it, then you will be tortured in fire for all eternity"

That alone is NOT freewill....

The deeper you probe into this "god" fellow, the more obvious he is a tyrant, the more obvious this "freewill" is a lie.

Shows how little you know of freewill and God for that matter, God does not torture and you can not show me that through the scriptures, you determine your destiny.

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(January 9, 2012 at 11:35 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(January 9, 2012 at 8:45 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: How can someone say "My god gives us all freewill" on one hand, then on the other hand say "This is a book describing how my God wishes you to live your life. If you dont do it, then you will be tortured in fire for all eternity"

That alone is NOT freewill....

The deeper you probe into this "god" fellow, the more obvious he is a tyrant, the more obvious this "freewill" is a lie.

In my view, there are two reasonable definitions for "freewill": freedom from coercion, and freedom to act. In my view, the threat of hell negates the former, and foreknowledge negates the latter - though theists often claim that their deity's perfect foreknowledge does not interfere with the free exercise of choice. I find that argument unconvincing.

How do you see foreknowledge to be control over another.

I feel I have to ask. Have you actually read the bible? If so, old testament or new?

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Godschild-

If there is free will, how does god have a plan for anyone or anything? (To the best of my knowledge, you have not claimed that god has a plan. However, many theists do, and I would like to know your views on that point.)

If free will actually exists, it would be impossible for a god to interfere with the world at all, lest he hamper the natural course of actions resulting from free will.

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Also, to respond to your original rebuttal, no. You having a belief does not mean that you have a choice in a world where a god controls everything. God could force you to believe something, if he actually existed. Also, you cut out the middle chunk of what I said, which is really the much stronger argument.

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(January 10, 2012 at 9:39 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(January 10, 2012 at 8:58 am)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

Quote:Shows how little you know of freewill and God for that matter, God does not torture and you can not show me that through the scriptures, you determine your destiny.

rev.j Wrote:Liar. You havent read your bible. Jesus said there would "be wailing and gnashing of teeth". After all, it was Jesus who said that a place of "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" would also be the place of the "everlasting punishment" of multitudes of people (Matthew 25:41,46) in an age to come.
So yeah GC, God doesnt torture people, he "utilizes alternative punishment techniques". Because weeping and gnashing of teeth of everlasting fiery punishment for those who God hates. And who are these? "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

So yeah, an eternal "punishment" in a lake of fire and brimstone where we weep and gnash our teeth is not anywhere near TORTURE...oh no. Calling it torture would make Jesus look bad.

You make the decision about your eternity, God gives you what you choose. Can't get much more fair than that. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is for the wrong decision one makes, weeping and gnashing of teeth is about sorrow not pain.

Quote:How do you see foreknowledge to be control over another.

rev.j Wrote:We have all explained it to you in detail through several pages of posts, yet you are still incapable of understanding.

No you have not, the only thing I've heard out of you is this, "just because," an answer that would come from a two year old.

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(January 10, 2012 at 1:00 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(January 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: Freewill

Could you remind us as to what hapened to A & E the first time they used their free will?

As I recall, God threw a fit all over them and us with original sin and all those other woes that he surprised A & E with.

Am I wrong?

Regards
DL

Adam and Eve disobeyed God it is as simple as that, God never through a fit. If you had the ability to understand a story of love and caring you would be able to understand the story of Adam and Eve. Since you do not understand the story that says what about you.
[/quote]

Hmm. . I'm not sure we're reading the same bible here. Let me guess: your pastor and/or mother read the story of Adam and Eve to you and glossed over the negative bits?

(January 10, 2012 at 8:55 pm)Godschild Wrote: You do not have to accept anything you do not want to, that's what freewill is all about, please try and show you are better than trying to twist others words around. Do not be like some of these young ones that only can argue a point by twisting words around.

What he is trying to tell you is that there ARE strings attached to it, and no amount of sugar coating will not change the fact that you either worship God or burn in hell for all eternity.

That is NOT freewill.

..and the only one twisting words around here is you.

Im also not "one of those young ones"...Im 39.

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Quote:Adam and Eve disobeyed God it is as simple as that, God never through a fit. If you had the ability to understand a story of love and caring you would be able to understand the story of Adam and Eve. Since you do not understand the story that says what about you.

I know what this post of yours says about you....since you are the one making character attacks...

If you think the book of genesis is about "love", then I dare not think what you consider to be hateful.

@ Aegrus -Yes I have read and studied the NT and OT, each is extremely important to the other, one is not understandable without the other.

Most people even some christians mistake what freewill is. Freewill does not mean you can do just what you desire when ever you want to. The freewill that God has given us is this, you have a choice to accept him or reject him. After your choice, your life will reflect your choice and God could use you to complete his will for his creation. Yes, God will use those who do not believe as well as those who do believe. As a christian I do,that is most of the time, have a choice, though a wrong decision may and probably will result in punishment in some manner. A nonbeliever on the other hand really has no choice, this makes sense because as a nonbeliever one would not know God was working through one's life.

God has always had a plan, he is omniscient and knows what was to transpire in the future. He knew Adam would blow it and he would need to redeem his creation yet, he would have to do it giving man freewill to accept him, it could be done no other way and still be done through love. God set his plan into motion the instant he began to create. He knew it would cost his Son yet, God still went through with his plan. God did not have to allow his Son to suffer and die, he could have wiped out the whole creation and left things the way they were before creation. He loved us so much that he did not wipe us out, he chose to redeem those who would love him instead. He knew that this would lead to great suffering in the world but, God was not giving up on those that would choose to love him. To answer an up coming question, God could have started over but he knew that Lucifer and Adam or whoever would make the same decisions, yep starting over would have changed nothing.
Hope this answers your questions. Also point out those negatives you see in the story of Adam and Eve.

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(January 10, 2012 at 10:38 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(January 10, 2012 at 8:55 pm)Godschild Wrote: You do not have to accept anything you do not want to, that's what freewill is all about, please try and show you are better than trying to twist others words around. Do not be like some of these young ones that only can argue a point by twisting words around.

What he is trying to tell you is that there ARE strings attached to it, and no amount of sugar coating will not change the fact that you either worship God or burn in hell for all eternity.

That is NOT freewill.

..and the only one twisting words around here is you.

Im also not "one of those young ones"...Im 39.

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Quote:Adam and Eve disobeyed God it is as simple as that, God never through a fit. If you had the ability to understand a story of love and caring you would be able to understand the story of Adam and Eve. Since you do not understand the story that says what about you.

I know what this post of yours says about you....since you are the one making character attacks...

If you think the book of genesis is about "love", then I dare not think what you consider to be hateful.

(January 10, 2012 at 11:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: Most people even some christians mistake what freewill is. Freewill does not mean you can do just what you desire when ever you want to. The freewill that God has given us is this, you have a choice to accept him or reject him. After your choice, your life will reflect your choice and God could use you to complete his will for his creation.

Then its not freewill. Brush up on your understanding of words while you at it.

hey GC

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Love is hate
Ignorance is strength