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One of the clues in John's Gospel that it was written much later than Christians like to pretend is how "advanced" the theology was. One of the strangest things is how "John" refers to "the Jews" as a separate, even hostile group.
Quote:1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
8:52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
11:8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Wasn't Jesus a Jew? Weren't his disciples Jews? Or was this written after Christianity had become a sect distinct from Judaism?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
(January 16, 2012 at 12:51 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: One of the clues in John's Gospel that it was written much later than Christians like to pretend is how "advanced" the theology was. One of the strangest things is how "John" refers to "the Jews" as a separate, even hostile group.
Quote:1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
8:52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
11:8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Wasn't Jesus a Jew? Weren't his disciples Jews? Or was this written after Christianity had become a sect distinct from Judaism?
That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
January 16, 2012 at 3:57 am (This post was last modified: January 16, 2012 at 3:59 am by Cosmic Ape.)
(January 16, 2012 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote:
(January 16, 2012 at 12:51 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: One of the clues in John's Gospel that it was written much later than Christians like to pretend is how "advanced" the theology was. One of the strangest things is how "John" refers to "the Jews" as a separate, even hostile group.
Quote:1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
8:52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
11:8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Wasn't Jesus a Jew? Weren't his disciples Jews? Or was this written after Christianity had become a sect distinct from Judaism?
That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
Your sig makes me fuckin sick, especially since people like you say that to children, innocent children being told they will burn forever if they dont submit to authority instead of realizing the facts that basing your morals on sadomasocistic authority instead of whats good for other people isnt moral, its disingenuous. We are our own keepers and as a society we make the morals which turn into laws, its a Evolutionary system. I know you Christians have a hard time with that word Evolution but it works on almost every level of thinking.
Anyone who preaches a hell with no actually evidence should be the people who go to this imaginary place they want everyone to go to if they dont believe in their god and if they dont get their way they want an apocalpyse in the real world, what kind of moral system is that shit... And what kind of piece of shit god would make you worship him with indirect and circumstantial evidence from primitive unculture illiterate arabs? Get real, if Science and Reason didnt bring the Christians to a rational standpoint of just taking their holy book as allegories more than an actual book from a deity (but yet written by people who couldnt read) we would still be in the dark ages of oppression.
January 16, 2012 at 5:39 am (This post was last modified: January 16, 2012 at 5:46 am by KichigaiNeko.)
G-C Wrote:That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
The point being that you xtians are a bunch of hypocrites and will re-write your so called "holy scripture" to suit yourselves, the problem being is that you forget to edit the ENTIRE TEXT and so create anomalies . Just proves that you don't know you babble as well as you would like to think G-C. Which is why no one should take these so called 'holy scriptures' as the word (inspired or otherwise) of this god / godboy you keep harping on about...get a life and do some furniture!!
All that is shown is that the christians are trying to place the blame on the Jews and promote anti semitism (as they have done for millennia) ...but then they are very good at that; which is why your babble is of no value what so ever as a guide to anything other than the greed and avarice of sheepole.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(January 16, 2012 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote: That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
Did you read my last sentence? Why did John say "the Jews" and not "the Pharasies" or "the Sadducees"?
The former has the Jewish leaders as a separate sect. The latter suggests a different denomination or splinter group, which at the time is what Jesus and his followers should have been.
The fact that the author of John clearly thought of "the Jews" as a sect separate and distinct from Jesus and his followers is evidence that the date of authorship is to a time when the two groups had already morphed into distinct sects.
Clear?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
(January 16, 2012 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote: That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
No, it is a bit more than that, although you are close.
He is pointing out that the fictional Jews in the story are much more evolved than earlier dipictions of the jew fictional characters, suggesting that a great amount of time had elapsed so that the Christian identity became much more distinct from Christianity's original source of proto Jewish/Roman Gnostic-mystics.
I tend to agree. The fictional Jesus character seems much more refined in John as well.
January 16, 2012 at 5:21 pm (This post was last modified: January 16, 2012 at 6:06 pm by Godscreated.)
(January 16, 2012 at 3:57 am)Hitchslap Wrote:
(January 16, 2012 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote:
(January 16, 2012 at 12:51 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:
One of the clues in John's Gospel that it was written much later than Christians like to pretend is how "advanced" the theology was. One of the strangest things is how "John" refers to "the Jews" as a separate, even hostile group.
Quote:1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
8:52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
11:8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Wasn't Jesus a Jew? Weren't his disciples Jews? Or was this written after Christianity had become a sect distinct from Judaism?
That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
Your sig makes me fuckin sick, especially since people like you say that to children, innocent children being told they will burn forever if they dont submit to authority instead of realizing the facts that basing your morals on sadomasocistic authority instead of whats good for other people isnt moral, its disingenuous. We are our own keepers and as a society we make the morals which turn into laws, its a Evolutionary system. I know you Christians have a hard time with that word Evolution but it works on almost every level of thinking.
Anyone who preaches a hell with no actually evidence should be the people who go to this imaginary place they want everyone to go to if they dont believe in their god and if they dont get their way they want an apocalpyse in the real world, what kind of moral system is that shit... And what kind of piece of shit god would make you worship him with indirect and circumstantial evidence from primitive unculture illiterate arabs? Get real, if Science and Reason didnt bring the Christians to a rational standpoint of just taking their holy book as allegories more than an actual book from a deity (but yet written by people who couldnt read) we would still be in the dark ages of oppression.
I don't know what this reply has to do with the OP, we're still on the first page and already trying to address a different subject, I will answer your statement but, let's keep this on the subject of the OP after this. First of all my signature is posted on an adult sight so no children should see it. Second I've taught children and I never taught hell, I've always taught that, the love God has for us is why we should love and trust him with our lives. You should get to know a person before accusing him/her of teaching something they do not teach.
Evolution might work for you, as for me it is a worthless theory that holds no water. As long as I and the children I've taught obey the moral laws Jesus taught then we will be in good standing with the laws of this country, since evolution and scripture do not go hand in hand this should not be possible. So it seems to me the laws this country has and the Bible agree with each other, could be that our laws for the most part are biblical based, I will admit that evolution theory is creeping into our laws and that's a sad thing.
Seems to me that my signature has you shaken, you're a grown up can't you handle reality, if not you are in the wrong place.
For people whom you say could not read they did a good job of writing down the Word of God. Also the illiterate Arabs you mentioned had nothing to do with the Bible, the Bible was written by the Jewish people. Sorry to tell you but, most christians I know believe the Bible is the truth sent to us through man, science is a wonderful thing but, it will never be able to understand God, who is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.
(January 16, 2012 at 3:57 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:
(January 16, 2012 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote: That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
No, it is a bit more than that, although you are close.
He is pointing out that the fictional Jews in the story are much more evolved than earlier dipictions of the jew fictional characters, suggesting that a great amount of time had elapsed so that the Christian identity became much more distinct from Christianity's original source of proto Jewish/Roman Gnostic-mystics.
I tend to agree. The fictional Jesus character seems much more refined in John as well.
The reason John's gospel is different from the other three, his gospel is written more as a gospel of love and of coarse this by nature make is seem more refined.
(January 16, 2012 at 2:21 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(January 16, 2012 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote: That makes no sense at all, just what point are you trying to make with those verses. All that you have shown is the Jewish leaders hated Jesus.
Did you read my last sentence? Why did John say "the Jews" and not "the Pharasies" or "the Sadducees"?
The former has the Jewish leaders as a separate sect. The latter suggests a different denomination or splinter group, which at the time is what Jesus and his followers should have been.
The fact that the author of John clearly thought of "the Jews" as a sect separate and distinct from Jesus and his followers is evidence that the date of authorship is to a time when the two groups had already morphed into distinct sects.
Clear?
The verses you have presented do indeed show that there was a separation between Jesus, his disciples and the Jewish nation and I believe there is a reason for this, probably more, but we'll stay with your premise, the gospel was written several years after Christ's time on earth but, in the same century. By what is stated in the book of Acts the growth of Christianity took off and grew extremely fast in a very short time with many Gentiles as part of Christianity. John also had time to look back on those years and see what had transpired. The Christians also viewed themselves as christian and not as a nationality, read the books Paul wrote and I think you will see this. So I believe that it would be only natural that John used the word Jews in the way he did.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
