Allen talks about sunrises and equinoxes (goes way over my head, as I said, never studied astronomy nor astrology.)

Quote:In Egyptian astronomy it represented the goddess Selkit, Selk‑t, or Serk‑t, heralding the sunrise through her temples at the autumnal equinox about 3700-3500 B.C.

Good stuff. Although Serkey never had any temples in 3700-3500BC.....

But where does it say, "the dead become stars?"

I'm not disputing cosmic myth, I'm just saying, don't take them too literally, they're intended as allegories.

Quote:There is much evidence that there is an underlying cosmic myth within the Bible itself.

The daily passage of the sun, or in more northernly climes, the yearly passage. Periods of growth, and periods of decay. The lunar cycle, or even zodiac cycle.

I'm right with ya, however you don't need kabaalah or chaldean astrology to unravel the mysteries of this cosmic myth. In fact by the time the Bible was written the original teachings had long been lost. Stay as close to pre-dynastic Egypt & Sumer as possible. Never go further than 2100BC, that's when it just goes down hill. (And which seems to be where you begin you're research)

Quote:The book of Matthew is a fusion of ancient astrology from Babylon circa 2000 BCE with the prevailing Greek and Roman views (manger, inn, riding the ass.)

You've peaked my interest, so what do the manger and riding the ass correspond to in the heavens? What is this? A passage of time, the orbit of a particular star sign?

and please God never take the "prevailing Greek and Roman views" seriously. Those people were notoriously dense, the quintesentially uninitiated.

I mean, seriously dude, they shouldn't even make an appearance in your book.

Just remember, Babylonian astrology came over 1500 years after the Sumerians & Egyptians (and don't forget the Irish, we've been building astronomically aligned Burial Chambers since 3500BC). So keep to the primary civilizations, the peoples that created this cosmic myth.

Quote:I'm not disputing cosmic myth, I'm just saying, don't take them too literally, they're intended as allegories.

Just a second there buckeroo. I think that's common mistake in taking myths out of context of their times.


Of course SOME myths are meant as allegories just as some ,even many,have some basis in actual people or events. It can be virtually impossible to tell. You may be right,or not.


The belief systems of some ancient religions were literal. Egyptian religion is a good example. In many cultures,ancient and not so ancient the line is blurred between "real"and "magic" or "pragmatic" and "religious"


It's a lot of fun trying to work out exactly what people long dead actually believed.We can claim what we like,they're not going to contradict us. All we can ever hope to say with confidence is "the evidence suggests" or "X is likely, Y is unlikely"

On a pragmatic level it's impossible to ever fully understand another human being,let alone an entire culture. Perhaps the least reliable source of information is the individual,about himself or members of a culture about their culture.Written records are often not a lot more reliable. (especially the vainglorious boasting found on monuments)

Imo the study of history is much harder, varied and 1000 times more interesting than the mythology of a tribe of bronze age goat herders. Not to mention the later mythology of a single person,so bloody gormless that he got himself nailed to a cross..


Viking to Christian missionary :"YOUR god got nailed to a tree. MY god carries bloody great hammer! [so fuck off}"

(July 14, 2009 at 6:45 pm)LEDO Wrote: all of the above ^

That's some interesting stuff. I'm not surprised with the findings of your research either, I just never have had a chance to study astronomy/astrology.

Have you included you're own theory as to what this all means, in you're book, if so, care to share that with me?

Quote:Of course SOME myths are meant as allegories just as some ,even many,have some basis in actual people or events. It can be virtually impossible to tell. You may be right,or not.

Myth is allegory by definition, and it isn't impossible to tell whatsoever.

Quote:The belief systems of some ancient religions were literal. Egyptian religion is a good example.

So is Amaunet literally a snake, or a representation of the primordial void in the Ogdoad system. Is Ra really a bird, or does that depiction merely represent how he (the sun) sails across the skies.

Egyptian religion is anything but literal, and their holy texts explicitly state that.

Quote:It's a lot of fun trying to work out exactly what people long dead actually believed.

Long dead? This may come as a shock to you, but the barbarian Irish still exist, the native americans, north and south, still exist. Various African and Asian cultures still exist and still retain their polytheistic, allegorical belief systems.

Not everyone in the world was assimilated into the white, rationally superior, Aryan imperialist sphere of influence.

Take a trip to Donegal and tell them that they can't tell if their myths are allegories or literal descriptions of historical events. With a name like Padraig, I would expect better of you.

---

(July 14, 2009 at 6:45 pm)LEDO Wrote: Sargon commissioned the study of the stars in the Early Bronze Age. This was the Golden Age of astrology/astronomy. Cosmically, historically, and politically it appears that the first cosmic myth (a proto-text) on which the Bible was based would have appeared in Ur around 1930 BCE after the Amorite conquest. Most likely at the temple of Sin.

Sargon was no Sumerian though, remember that.

One other thing, but very important. The "true teaching", if there is such a thing, is passed down orally from master to initiate. When it get's written down (by Sargon's daughter no less) just keep in mind that she doesn't have the authority to do so. This is the beginning of the vulgar religion, created by certain kings and emporers to take power away from the temple economy, and the "gods".

I'm always wary when reading Akkadian/Babylonian records, the Egyptian Resurrection Books are far superior and apparently written by the priests themselves.

The Irish, for example, never wrote a single word of their beliefs down. It was the greatest taboo in irish society, and most probably in Sumer & Egypt too. It took Latinized Christian monks to write down the first installments of Irish mythology.

So if it's written down, it's not with the blessing of the people who created the myth, and thus understand it's true meaning. Always keep that in the back of you're head.

Anton,

Sargon and those Akkadians that followed believed that man was controlled by the stars. His past, present, and future could all be read into the constellations. Prophecy was done mainly through astrology, especially the Biblical Revelation. The great cosmic myth presented in the Bible was meant to be a history of the "world" or at least that region. It combined factual history with astrology, or history of the heavens. Historical people and gods became the characters in the Bible, with altered names.

If you knew this saga, and not too difficult to forget, you would also know the meaning or significance of the stars and constellations. The real meaning of the story would have been kept semi-secret as it could predict the future as well as be used for navigation or travel by night.

The Akkadian stories and history clearly underline the text. However, in most cases the names of the characters are mainly Amorite with a few exceptions. The Amorites took these stories and adopted them as their own, most likely because they too worship similar cosmic gods.

The following is very speculative and may not be true as it pertains to my theory. It is a possibility as to how this cosmic proto-text came about:

During the reign of Gungunum, an Amorite who conquered Ur sometime after 1930 BCE, he vowed to return the culture of the moon-god Sin to the people and to return those who were dispersed. Most likely and Akkadian reference. I contend the proto-text was written, (with some exceptions such as Moses) to give the people of Ur back their religion. However Gungunum fused his religion with theirs. Abraham is the key character. He is from Ur then goes to Haran, an Amorite moon worshipping city. He then becomes the leader of his people. Gungunum returns to Ur, as a king of the Amorites. He would have been seen as a descendent of Abraham of Ur. Hence, he would look not as an invader, but as one who returned, a liberator. this would make it easier for him to govern.

I'm sure you're right about him restoring the indigenous Sumerian religious practices aswell as incorporating the Amorite traditions too. The Gudeans, then, I believe, took Akkad, although they didn't seem to bother with restoring the indigenous culture/religious practices after the fall of the Sargonic dynasty.

I have a question though, are you sure astrology was originally as important to these people as it became during the 2nd Millenium BC? I feel it's an alien concept. The cosmic myth itself is not astrological technically speaking. The stars are only used (like any mythical archetype) to transmit certain initiatic information.

I dunno, but I supposes it would make sense that Anu, the Sky God, would be king of the gods, decreeing their fates, considering he is the night sky and the stars, the fates, are his domain.

Keep up the good work, your helping me make sense of the compicated relationships between the thousands of gods.

Now all I need to find out is what the god of digging canal ditches really is. Or maybe he really does just dig ditches, who knows.

Quote:Myth is allegory by definition, and it isn't impossible to tell whatsoever.

First agree on a definition of myth. EG Try telling that to a Christian referrring to the gospels,which I consider myth,with little if any basis in fact.

Of course certainty is not possible. That's true of most historical study.However,it IS possible to work out what is likely. Many (not the majority) of myths probably have SOME basis fact.

Perhaps the most obvious examples are flood myths,which are found all over the world.There is little doubt they are stories of actual events. Major floods have always been among the most overwhelming and terrifying of natural catastrophes.It makes perfect sense,that seeing water to the horizon,observers assumed the entire world had been flooded.

My point about Egyptian religion is that it it's probable ( no one knows for sure) that MANY Egyptians believed their religion to be literal.Priests ,who were highly trained,literate and who had access to sacred books probably held some different views. A similar situation existed in Christendom until the printing press,translation of the bible into the vulgate,AND the emergence of universal literacy.

In Australian aborigine belief, the creator spirit,the rainbow serpent is indeed literal.


Most religions have what anthropologists call "the greater and lesser traditions" The idea is that there are different levels of knowledge and sophistication within most religions,ranging from the literalist ( here we call such people "fundies") to the middle of the road (say middle class Episcopalians) to the ascetic mystic.(various types of Yogi)

Quote:Long dead? This may come as a shock to you, but the barbarian Irish still exist, the native americans, north and south, still exist. Various African and Asian cultures still exist and still retain their polytheistic, allegorical belief systems.

LEDO Get over yourself. I was referring specifically to the ancient peoples which were being discussed.

Oh,my academic background is in Social Anthropology.Would you like a reading list of the cultures you've mentioned?

Addendum:"an allegorical belief system" also describes totemism. The word "allegorical" fits a European world view as we no longer have any equivalent, but is incomplete and misleading.

Quote:Perhaps the most obvious examples are flood myths,which are found all over the world.There is little doubt they are stories of actual events.

Sorry that's wrong. I'm sure Ledo would back me up here.

The firmament of the heavens are composed of ice, diametrically opposed to the hellish fires below.

Fire below, ice above. Impulse & inhibiter, instinct & forethought, irrational & rational.

The Flood happens at the end of a cycle of creation, where the fire melts the ice. When Spring succeeds Winter and the dew melts. The resurgence of life after the lifeless dark age.

The flood is an important component of the cosmic myth. The Flood signals the end of one age of creation and the beginning of the new.

Quote:My point about Egyptian religion is that it it's probable ( no one knows for sure) that MANY Egyptians believed their religion to be literal.

That doesn't matter, the creators of the myths intended them to be read as allegories. And there are many myth-makers still alive today that will agree.

Quote:Priests ,who were highly trained,literate and who had access to sacred books probably held some different views.

There were no sacred books, the myths were never written down, they were orally transmitted from teacher to student. Priests originally only carried out adminstrative roles at temples, they had no instruction in myth.

The Pyramid texts were just that, initiatic instruction manuals written into the walls of the pyramids/sarcophagus. No priests would have even been allowed to enter the structure let alone study it's secrets.

Quote:In Australian aborigine belief, the creator spirit,the rainbow serpent is indeed literal.

What's you're evidence.

Quote:Most religions have what anthropologists call "the greater and lesser traditions" The idea is that there are different levels of knowledge and sophistication within most religions,ranging from the literalist ( here we call such people "fundies") to the middle of the road (say middle class Episcopalians) to the ascetic mystic.(various types of Yogi)

Well, it would be the ascetics that create the myths, with an allegorical code, the middle of the road folks, priests, carry out adminstrative roles at temples, such as observance of rituals, social work etc., and the "fundies" as you call them, are people with too much work on their hands living in an age with little to no education system whatsoever.

We don't care about the fundies, it's like asking a member of the public to describe Mozart. They may have listened to his work, but have no understanding whatsoever of his art.

Priests only have second hand knowledge, it's the "mystics" that have access to the original sources, their minds.

Quote:LEDO Get over yourself. I was referring specifically to the ancient peoples which were being discussed.

That was me, Anto. Those "ancient peoples" still exist. And the initiatic knowldge has been passed down from generation to generation. Myth never changes because it is formed under the same circumstances using the same principal absolutes i.e. Earth, Water, Sky, Fire.

Indeed the reason why various cultures have a flood myth, and a sky god, and an earth god, and a fire god, and a certain character who first brought civilization to the culture; is because, "they're all singing from the same hymn sheet".

Quote:Addendum:"an allegorical belief system" also describes totemism.

So it would, your point being?

I am not sure where to start, or what to respond to.

1) The firmament was considered to have been made of brass. It touched the earth at its ends, like a dome.
2) The flood is associated with the constellation of Argo. It has a Raven nearby as well as a star meaning "ground." These constellations are associated with spring months, i.e. the time of annual flooding. I would claim the 100 year flood founded at Ur would have been the closest possible thing the Biblical flood was based upon. After all my theory contends the OT stories centered around Ur.
3) The Rabbis had 4 basic tenets about the Bible, or OT:
a) There was a hidden text inside
b) It could be used to predict the future, the text applied to today
c) It had no errors
d) It was from God.

The cosmic myth idea, in which the Bible contains an astrological sub meaning explains why these 4 ideas which seem silly to modern scholars who haven't broken the astrological code, make sense in the light of the cosmic myth.

The Bible is not the only religion or text which is based upon the cosmic myth. I would claim nearly all religions and religious texts involving wonderous fanciful stories are cosmic myth in nature from Gilgamesh to Homer.

"There were no sacred books,

Really.

Ever heard of:

"The Book of Coming Forth By Day", aka "The Book of The Dead" ( Egyptian )

"The Epic of Gilgamesh" (Sumerian)

The Pali Texts? (Buddhist)

"The Popul Vuh"? (Mayan)

The Vedas and the Upanishad. (Indian)

We seem to be arguing from different perspectives. I guess we'll need to agree to differ. I have nothing further to say on this matter.