Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

Regards
DL

Too many Christians think that once you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you have a ticket to Heaven and have the right to be a total dick to other people. In other words, they rely totally on the faith thing but don't give a crap about good works. It's very clear in the bible that Jesus wanted everyone to not only worship God, but to also do good works to others. Remember the parable about "Lord, when did we see you hungry?" "That which you do for the least of my people, you do for me?"

But, I don't count on most Christians to actually know what's in their bible. To them it's like a software license. They don't read it, but click on "I agree" at the bottom.

(January 25, 2012 at 2:08 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Too many Christians think that once you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you have a ticket to Heaven and have the right to be a total dick to other people. In other words, they rely totally on the faith thing but don't give a crap about good works. It's very clear in the bible that Jesus wanted everyone to not only worship God, but to also do good works to others. Remember the parable about "Lord, when did we see you hungry?" "That which you do for the least of my people, you do for me?"

But, I don't count on most Christians to actually know what's in their bible. To them it's like a software license. They don't read it, but click on "I agree" at the bottom.

+ 1

Yes.
Strange that the ones who talk the most about walking their talk do not.

Regards
DL

(January 25, 2012 at 12:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

Regards
DL

When did what never existed die? Is the love a more salient characteric of god than non-existence?

The Catholic position is 'faith without works is dead". That position has some major philosophical problems. (like Christianity generally)

Just as ants cannot please or offend humans,we cannot please or offend an infinite being. The love and forgiveness of such a being must be unconditional. (another reason for no hell)

(January 25, 2012 at 6:22 pm)padraic Wrote: The Catholic position is 'faith without works is dead". That position has some major philosophical problems. (like Christianity generally)

Just as ants cannot please or offend humans,we cannot please or offend an infinite being. The love and forgiveness of such a being must be unconditional. (another reason for no hell)

I am offended by ants in my house all the time.

How about we discount infinity a little and say some people masochistically enjoy the angst that comes from paranoia about offending a notional being that looked very large to Hebrews who had trouble counting much beyond the number of goats they fucked?

(January 25, 2012 at 12:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Paul and James are both correct in what they say, there is no contradiction between the two as some would suggest or claim. Paul says that to receive salvation there are no works involved, faith and faith alone. What Jame's says is one can not live the same as they did before they receive salvation, they will prove to others who they are by their works, in other words if one continues to live in a sinful life style without repentance they are giving up their salvation.

GIa Wrote:Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

I would tend to agree with this because, without the works or deeds one is not demonstrating the faith they may claim to have, though, I do believe that faith itself is not works.

Again as I said Jame's is speaking of the life of a christian, not how they came to their salvation. There is a division between many denominations as to what Jame's is referring to, obtaining or maintaining one's salvation.

GIa Wrote:Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

I do agree that there is no love without works but, faith comes about IMO in different ways or needs. A child has faith that Santa is real even to the point of belief. There is no work done to have this faith but, the child will demonstrate this faith through works such as writing Santa a letter and/or leave cookies and milk for him.
Love on the other hand most likely starts as an attraction to someone, and that attraction becomes love as we start to do for others. So love is in a way a work, faith and belief are in themselves not works but shown through works.

GIa Wrote:Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

God is love, it is what He is not who He is. God did not create those things in the beginning, a read of Genesis will show this to be the case, those things that harm us came after the fall. Whether these things came about through God creating them or through species adaptation I do not know. As far as a loving act, if you punish your child do you do it because you dislike them or love them.

GIa Wrote:Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

In part I do agree, what I want to know, is the nonbeliever able to see the works of love from God when they do not recognize He is real, I do not see how, I see His works in my life, even when other Christians may not, so how could a nonbeliever see God's loving work.


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Is the non-believer able to eat the imaginary pizza he did not buy? These questions are indeed troubling.

(January 26, 2012 at 5:39 am)Godschild Wrote: Paul and James are both correct in what they say, there is no contradiction between the two as some would suggest or claim. Paul says that to receive salvation there are no works involved, faith and faith alone. What Jame's says is one can not live the same as they did before they receive salvation, they will prove to others who they are by their works, in other words if one continues to live in a sinful life style without repentance they are giving up their salvation.

Nice way to work out your doublethink, but I don't buy it. This is just some of the mental jumping through hoops that I used to do to myself when I was religious so that I could explain away contradictions within the religion.

(January 26, 2012 at 2:09 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(January 26, 2012 at 5:39 am)Godschild Wrote: Paul and James are both correct in what they say, there is no contradiction between the two as some would suggest or claim. Paul says that to receive salvation there are no works involved, faith and faith alone. What Jame's says is one can not live the same as they did before they receive salvation, they will prove to others who they are by their works, in other words if one continues to live in a sinful life style without repentance they are giving up their salvation.

Nice way to work out your doublethink, but I don't buy it. This is just some of the mental jumping through hoops that I used to do to myself when I was religious so that I could explain away contradictions within the religion.

As I explained there's no contradiction, in no way is Jame's saying one must work to receive their salvation. If you really believed he did say that one must work to receive salvation, then show me how much work and what kind and at what point is enough work done to receive salvation. If you can't answer these criteria then your hoop theory fails. Also none of the disciples say that work is necessary for salvation, if you believe this to be untrue read the book of Acts.

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(January 26, 2012 at 5:46 am)Epimethean Wrote: Is the non-believer able to eat the imaginary pizza he did not buy? These questions are indeed troubling.

It's your question that is not only troubling but, quite confusing.