Quote:You could try to see it from my perspective before you assume that I am attacking you.

To 'patronise' means 'to treat condescendingly' (Concise Oxford Dictionary) To do so is insulting,but not usually meant as an attack.


It is also patronising to assume I do not understand your perspective: I simply reject your beliefs due to the lack of credible evidence.

(February 16, 2012 at 11:11 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Except if you're wrong...

Except if you're wrong. So Na. I mean, what a silly argument... theist ever stop bumping gums to calculate the probabilities of being wrong? Hell no! They righteous, bro!

No; it doesn't seem like righteousness so much as a lack of compassion and an overblown superiority complex. There is no moral ambiguity in Padriac's response: I for one consider thinking independently and taking responsibility for one's life... is "image of god" kinda thinking.

I don't think there's anything wrong with loving the IDEA of the divine or the divine as a good story.

I'm really into Greek Mythology and I absolutely love the characters of Apollo, Eros (aka Cupid), Hades, and many MANY more. I think they're amazing characters and I love how greek deities had unabashed evil and merciful sides that were representative of "that's just nature." Ares brought war, death, and destruction BUT he also brought peace, courage, and patriotism etc.. If they were real divine creatures than I'd love to be a theist lol

Well all I currently do that is considered worship in my eyes is love the divine and deem it maximally great. I'm saying in the same way we can love Socrates and deem him great, even if we don't believe he existed or didn't, it's the same with the divine being. Just as we would have loved and deemed great the real Socrates if he was real and the descriptions of him were accurate, the same is true if there was a maximally great being.

I think it's simple and trivial.

Quote:I don't think there's anything wrong with loving the IDEA of the divine or the divine as a good story.

But too many idiots think it is real, dear.

That's too big a price to pay for a story.

Quote:I don't think there's anything wrong with loving the IDEA of the divine or the divine as a good story.

Indeed. Last night I watched the first Harry potter film, AGAIN. That's a good story too,but of course Harry Potter is true---

(February 17, 2012 at 11:04 am)LarissaAnn Wrote: I don't think there's anything wrong with loving the IDEA of the divine or the divine as a good story.

I'm really into Greek Mythology and I absolutely love the characters of Apollo, Eros (aka Cupid), Hades, and many MANY more. I think they're amazing characters and I love how greek deities had unabashed evil and merciful sides that were representative of "that's just nature." Ares brought war, death, and destruction BUT he also brought peace, courage, and patriotism etc.. If they were real divine creatures than I'd love to be a theist lol

I agree. A lot of the stories actually have higher moral values than Hebrew mythology. Apollo would have almost been like the Hebrew Jesus, except Apollo was a real God.

Apollo was born of a union of Zeus and Leto, (a God and a Goddess). So Apollo was a full-fledged God himself.

Jesus was clearly a demigod having been the result of a union between the God of Abraham and a mortal woman named Mary.

There were a lot of Gods and Goddesses in Greek mythology which actually makes far more sense than the lonely frustrated jealous male God of the Hebrews.

Christians often argue that Jesus was the "Son" of the God of Abraham long before he was born through Mary as a physical man. They claim that Jesus was with God from the very beginning of time.

But then that begs the question of how Jesus could have possible be the "Son" of the God of Abraham if there was not female Goddess counter part.

The God of Abraham would have had to screw himself, get pregnant, and have his own baby Jesus. Then poor Jesus had to go through that whole ordeal again then he was born of Mary.

It's a convoluted tale to be sure.

Greek mythology actually often makes more sense than the Hebrew mythology.

I don't think omnipotent beings need to be worshiped. Worship is nothing but a ridiculous idea invented by humans.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Get off. I can 'out-imagine' you any day of the week brotherly. I can imagine the Mother of God spanking her unruly, tantrum-throwing son [God] on his supernatural backside whenever he abuses his own creation. His current 'absence' is because his hypernatural mum sent him to his room as punishment for being cruel and tyrannical to mortals.

How do you out imagine a maximally great being? Whether you think that God is a maximally great being is a different question. My statement was referring to the fact that atheists view deity in a negative connotation and thus probably have trouble imagining anything positive about it.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: What the hell does "spiritual eyes" mean?

It means there is a way of seeing that extends beyond what you now perceive.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: I can conceive of situations where people worship a being whose very existence cannot be demonstrated. Do I think such a being is worthy of worship? No.

What being would be worthy of worship?

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: What kind of half-arsed appeal to intelligent design was that? At least make an argument that can be refuted as opposed to being ignored as a rant. There is no evidence of a designer or creator in nature. Anywhere. And God knows what's best for me? By sending me to eternal torment and suffering in Hell? Just because I couldn't believe in this life? What an almighty bastard you believe in!

There is plenty of evidence for design, such as the information in DNA. God only sends unrepentant sinners to hell, so if you have been warned and you still refuse to turn from your sins, I don't see anything unfair about it. He knows what is best for you because He created you and knows you better than you know yourself. Do you deny that such a being would know what is best for you?

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: The catch-22 here is if a sentient being is *worthy* of worship they wouldn't want to worshipped in the first instance. A flawless rationally-minded deity wouldn't require other lower creatures to debase themselves idolizing or holding them in such reverence and high-esteem to the point where people stop being themselves. If God's perfect, and not an ego-manic, then he would find your religious ceremonies disgusting or at the very least, unnecessary. He'd find your acts of worship embarrassing and opening him to shame in front of an angelic audience and wouldn't want or need your worship.

Conversely, if God demands worship from mere mortals, he's not perfect and therefore, not worthy of worship.

Your flaw here is that you're contrasting God to human beings. It is debasing to worship another human being, because no human being is worthy of worship. It isn't debasing to worship a being that is worthy of worship. Worship isn't groveling yourself, it is a sincere proclamation of reverance and gratitude. Consider this quote by CS Lewis:

“[Lewis] But the most obvious fact about praise – whether of God or anything – strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honour. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless . . . shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise – lovers praising their mistresses [Romeo praising Juliet and vice versa], readers their favourite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favourite game – praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. . . . Except where intolerably adverse circumstances interfere, praise almost seems to be inner health made audible. . . . I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: 'Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?' The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.”

It is natural to praise what we value. God doesn't need worship; He doesn't need anything. He instituted it for our benefit, as a way to be in right relationship with Him. I think the Creator of this Universe is definitely worthy of worship.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Except the consequences are eternal which makes your god an asshat for giving us that choice. That's akin to a parent giving his child the freewill to point a loaded gun up his own nose. God is either monstrously abusive, or wholly irresponsible and incompetent as a 'parental figure'.

If He didn't give us the choice we would be robots. You could call any parent "monstrously abusive" for knowingly conceiving a child that could potentially be a murderer or die in a hideous way. He gives us the opportunity to have eternal life, but if someone prefers to do evil instead, that is their choice.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Yeah right. Look up indoctrination sometime and learn something about yourself.

I know what it means, and that doesn't apply to me. I came to Christianity independently.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: At least you don't subscribe to Christianity for personal gain. Heaven forbid!

I "subscribe" to Christianity because I believe it is true.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: A creator-god concept is a being that is all alone in an infinite void/singularity without any other like him to comfort him. He can imagine up a world (universe), fantasize a family (humans), but unlike him, none of it is real and deep down he knows it.

God had perfect love due to relationships in the Holy Trinity before He created anything. He didn't create out of need, He created out of an abundance of love. It is real because He gave us a spirit, which makes us as real as He is, since God is a Spirit.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: A god can't die. Do you even know what the concept of a deity is?

A God who came to Earth as a man could die. When you die, your spirit leaves your body, and that's what happened to Jesus. In that sense, we are all immortal. You are having trouble imagining this because you see death as the end, and in that sense, no God couldn't die, but that isn't the reality.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Life is a process, death is its inevitable outcome.

Death is inevitable, but not final.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Yeah, its the painting's fault the artist sucks so hard.

It's the childs fault if he doesn't listen to his parents.

(February 17, 2012 at 2:53 am)Welsh cake Wrote: If its all about god, then you are nothing, O adopted son and co-heir of magic man.

It is quite the converse in regards to me. It's all about God, in that, we reach our highest potential when we are in line what what He has ordained. That is what we were created for and so I am really nothing without Him.

---

(February 17, 2012 at 5:12 am)genkaus Wrote: How do you not see the contradiction here? Giving someone free-will without autonomy is like giving someone a dick without any balls.

You have autonomy to obey or disobey His commands. Much like you have the choice to do the dishes or go to your room. It doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want, forever.

(February 17, 2012 at 5:12 am)genkaus Wrote: If he decides who to adopt based on who praises him, then his "adoptive" children and sycophants are not different.

He decides to adopt anyone who calls upon the name of Jesus Christ.

(February 17, 2012 at 5:12 am)genkaus Wrote: Praise him? For what? Giving me something I did not deserve?

I'd be grateful if he told me, "I'm doing all this because I expect you to pay me back every penny", I'd be grateful to him. Otherwise, I'd call him a fool and throw his money back in his face.

The trouble is, there is nothing you can do to earn it. He has been providing for you your entire life; you have a lot to be grateful for.

(February 16, 2012 at 6:19 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: I don't think this logically follows for most atheists, although they may be able to conceive of receiving such adoration unto themselves.

I think they are hung up on notions of autonomy, thinking that the independent, self-reliant mode is the superior mindset.

I do not think they can imagine a maximally great being because their spiritual eyes are clouded by preconceived notions about deity. It think it is difficult for them to conceive of a being that is truly worthy of praise, and worship, because they reject the notion that there is anything higher than themselves, except perhaps for some vague notion of the grandness and majesty they see in creation.

They see worship as beneath them. Even if they found out that this is the reason they were created, the very purpose of their existence, they would still deny it. They just can't trust God or admit that the designer of the Universe knows better than they do about what is best for them.

They are probably contrasting this to human beings, and how wrong it is for us to worship another human, when the only reason for this is, it is wrong to worship anything other than God, not that there is anything wrong with worship. I don't think they see that distinction. No one else is worthy of worship but God. It is wrong to worship false idols. They probably do not realize that we are all built to worship something, and if it isn't God, it will be something else. Whether it is self, money, power, sex, fame, or even nature, idolatry is not just about bowing before a golden calf.

Oh, those evil atheists,

Fact is BL, I see no evidence for god, of any description.

Which is not the same as saying there is no god.

But for sure if there is a god, it won't be the jealous, hateful, genocidal, misogynistic, petty, murderous twat that you bend your knee to.

The universe that we live in, the vast beyond comprehension and ancient beyond imagining universe we live in attests to that.