(March 30, 2012 at 1:05 pm)Orion3T Wrote: I'm an atheist who has asking a sincere question about non-christian interpretations of scripture which grant his existence.

(bold mine)

Hmmm, how odd, wouldn't be all scripture in support of the one that's been scripted for? Something's fishy in here and it ain't the usual G-C bullshit.

Quote:The person im talking about was actually mad at his father and had every right to be. I think it was an extension of that relationship but the essential point remains that he was angry at something beside this externalised idea of "god".

Ok sorry, I misunderstood. Not especially familiar with C.S. Lewis other than in the Narnia sense.

I think the point was still valid, if not relevant to what you had said.

(March 30, 2012 at 3:13 pm)Orion3T Wrote:

Quote:The person im talking about was actually mad at his father and had every right to be. I think it was an extension of that relationship but the essential point remains that he was angry at something beside this externalised idea of "god".

Ok sorry, I misunderstood. Not especially familiar with C.S. Lewis other than in the Narnia sense.

I think the point was still valid, if not relevant to what you had said.

To sum up my point: People who are angry at god still believe that god exists and are just mad at him. I don't think that god exists and therefore could never be mad at something I didn't think was there. People who believe in god but are just "rebelling" against him (I HATE when they put it this way) are much more likely to relapse into religion than atheists who genuinely do not believe in the existence of god.

(March 30, 2012 at 12:27 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I'd like to deal with this one.

Quote:3. Jesus studied scripture to such an extent he was able to offer plausible reinterpretations of the old testament consistent with his own moral observations of the real world.

Studied where? "Jesus" if he ever existed (which I doubt) was referred to as a "tekton" which pious xtians have tried to translate as "carpenter" but which really seems to mean "builder." Here is a photo of Sepphoris, a city re-built during jesus' alleged lifetime and just a few kilometers from the purported site of "Nazareth."

http://wakeforestpilgrimage.files.wordpr...l4-018.jpg

See a lot of trees that would be suitable for "carpentry?" People built houses out of stone. Calling jesus a carpenter soothes xtian vanity by putting their godboy into a whole other social class of tradesmen rather than a common worker...no "prosperity gospel" for this fellow! The absence of any obvious "city" for Nazareth in the early first century is another nail in the coffin of this myth. There might have been some books in a city but a miserable agricultural hamlet? No way. Books were exceedingly expensive and some shlepper would not be found with one nor, given the general illiteracy rates of ancient societies, would he have been able to read it.

I'm afraid this image of jesus the great torah scholar was stolen from Josephus' "Life" in which he made similar claims for himself. The obvious difference is that Josephus was from a wealthy family and WAS literate.

tektōn
Pronunciation

te'k-tōn (Key)


Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From the base of τιμωρία (G5098)

TDNT Reference
n/a
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a worker in wood, a carpenter, joiner, builder

a) a ship's carpenter or builder

2) any craftsman, or workman

a) the art of poetry, maker of songs

3) a planner, contriver, plotter

a) an author


It seems the word in question has implications outside of your scope.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/review/man35821.shtml

Quote:As scholars have recently noted, the word usually translated “carpenter” (tekton) can also mean someone who worked with his hands, or a stone worker. As Joseph may have done stonework and manual labor rather than being a craftsman with wood, this would have put him in the lowest of the lower class. Therefore, the family Jesus grew up in would not have owned land, but they would have been subsistence farmers accustomed to menial labor. According to Stephen Patterson, the family of Jesus was a step below the normal peasant. This being the case, neither Joseph nor Jesus was a carpenter; they were more likely workers with stone and general manual labor.

Geography dictates that stone was the primary building material in the area. Galilee was not the forests of Gaul, you know.

Except for that fact that there was no jesus, joseph or Nazareth your boy could have been a pediatrician.

Sucks to be you.

Quote:Jesus loyal followers would not have suffered the way they did unless they knew for certain He was who He claimed to be wrong.

Bollocks.

To this day nobody knows 'for certain' that Jesus (who may or may not have existed) was who the mythology which is the NT claims him to have been. Personal certitude is not the same as certainty.

His putative apostles may or may not have been aware of the suffering in their future,and may or may not have accepted it willingly. We have no way of knowing their motivation. The Gospels DO tell us Peter wasn't all that keen, denying he even knew Jesus; three times.

(March 30, 2012 at 10:40 pm)Minimalist Wrote: http://www.bibleinterp.com/review/man35821.shtml

Quote:As scholars have recently noted, the word usually translated “carpenter” (tekton) can also mean someone who worked with his hands, or a stone worker. As Joseph may have done stonework and manual labor rather than being a craftsman with wood, this would have put him in the lowest of the lower class. Therefore, the family Jesus grew up in would not have owned land, but they would have been subsistence farmers accustomed to menial labor. According to Stephen Patterson, the family of Jesus was a step below the normal peasant. This being the case, neither Joseph nor Jesus was a carpenter; they were more likely workers with stone and general manual labor.

Geography dictates that stone was the primary building material in the area. Galilee was not the forests of Gaul, you know.

Except for that fact that there was no jesus, joseph or Nazareth your boy could have been a pediatrician.

Sucks to be you.

Why do you assume that Carpenters only work on homes? You do know where Galilee is located right? and you do know what people ate in those times who live near the sea? (hint it's fish) So how did they get those fish? (Nother hint: boats) What do you think those boats were made of stone? Maybe Sand and mud Like the houses?

So we have wooden boats (even though they did not live in a forest region) in a salt environment with primitive means of building boats (iron spikes, wooden dowels, dove tailing, and tar) which were used Everyday to sustain life for the members of this town because there was little else to eat. Sounds to me someone could make a living repairing boats that would otherwise wear out very fast. (wooden boats..) there is a word in the Greek that describes someone who works with wood we translate that word in the English what was it again??? I believe it Starts with a "C"...

"Nazareth" ( even if it had existed in the early first century ) was no where near the sea of Galilee, moron.

Learn to read a map.

(March 30, 2012 at 10:40 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Geography dictates that stone was the primary building material in the area. Galilee was not the forests of Gaul, you know.

Except for that fact that there was no jesus, joseph or Nazareth your boy could have been a pediatrician.

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html outlines some third-party sources on Jesus. And think--thousands of people converted to Christianity within a few years of his alleged resurrection. People could ask their neighbors if the man existed. Israel is a small place, the tribe of Judah smaller, and Nazareth/Galilee even smaller. You can learn a lot about Nazareth from archaeology. It's been around since the Israelites settled (around 1200 BC) and still exists today.

You're right, carpenters had to be skilled because there weren't many trees. They had to craft boats, plows, yokes, troughs, and small tools while using as little wood as possible. Fishing was the man occupation for food and trade. You can go to museums and see preserved Galilee boats. There also was a Roman trade route running down from Lebanon (legendary for its cedars) as well as timber ships sailing into Tyre and Ptolemais.

Undeceived Wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html outlines some third-party sources on Jesus.

Have you researched any of those ancient historians and their evidence? The most overwhelming evidence for Jesus probably comes from Josephus, if you choose to be ignorant. A JEW confessing that Jesus was 'the Christ'? Pass.

I've already been there and done that on a different forum. Phil can easily show you why none of those are credible in any way, shape or form.