(April 22, 2012 at 3:22 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Ok now pay attention, cause this is the big one that you people are always missing out on.
You would totally have a valid point about our morals being useless because they are subjective if it weren't for one massive glaring thing ...
The morals of Christians are absolutely no better than anyone elses ... making your whole point mute. When your priests stop molesting children, when your preachers stop getting arrested for embezzlement, when your missionaries stop raping the natives, when your parishioners stop cheating on their wives, beating their kids, and stealing from their neighbors you can talk to me about the problems with our subjective morality. Telling the world that we should fear our own moral code when there is no god telling us what right and wrong is - is just insulting. Especially when you consider the atrocities that come from the hands of Christians everywhere!

And by the way Hitler WAS a Christian and what good did his god-given "objective" morals do the world?? Well, if you're anti-Semitic, than Hitler did a great good didn't he? But yeah, for the rest of us, your god-given morals didn't do a damn thing! None!

you missed completely my point. Again : How can you say, Hitler was objectively wrong, in killing Jews, if he thought it was right ? Why should your opinion be more true, about what is wrong, and what is right, if God does not exist , than Hitlers perception of what is right, and what is wrong?

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(April 22, 2012 at 5:07 pm)Watchman Wrote: how nice to see you here, Watchman. And - thanks for you introductory post.
How about you show your originality - and actually answer the issue of this topic ?


Oh Angelo ..... what for ?

You're forgetting ,I've seen your repertoire.

I know all your twisted , copied & pasted routines.

Plus you know I never knowingly feed trolls.


Oh ,and if your feeling talkative...
Can I ask
Is it your bunch involved in this....

"Scandal Rocks Pentecostal Church in Brazil

By Jan Rocha / London Observer Service
SAO PAULO, Brazil -- Ana Paula Monteiro was such a loyal contributor to the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God that she was awarded a diploma -- signed by "Mr. Jesus Christ." She says she has paid $12,000 in tithes and special offerings.

Last week, Monteiro went down to the Universal Church's largest temple in Sao Paulo and demanded her money back. A preacher told her: "Go and get it back from God."

Link:
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/...ndal.shtml

we know this " church " well. So what ?

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(April 22, 2012 at 5:32 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: We are the result of the universe not the purpose of it.

And what is the cause of the universe ?

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(April 22, 2012 at 6:20 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I've simply rejected the claim that such a being exists.

So based on what have you rejected it ?

(April 22, 2012 at 6:20 pm)Jireh Wrote: And what is the cause of the universe ?

Virtual particles, quantum mechanics. Stephen Hawking and Lawrence Krauss go deep and going deeper into explaining it. A god isn't required for a universe to exist it seems.

Quote:So based on what have you rejected it ?

I've rejected the claim due to a lack of evidence to support it. Lacks value and credibility. I don't really need a reason to not believe in god. I never did believe it.

(April 22, 2012 at 6:01 pm)Jireh Wrote:

(April 22, 2012 at 11:40 am)Stimbo Wrote: Other than our own consciences

so why do you have a conscience, but animals do not ?

I will not say this again; please do not take my words out of context. Here is the context, for reference:

(April 22, 2012 at 11:40 am)I Wrote:

Quote:There is nobody that can say, you are wrong and right.

Other than our own consciences, family, friends, law enforcement, society at large, then you have a point. Under your hat.

Besides which, have you ever owned a dog? They most certainly know right from wrong and know when they have done something wrong, the working definition of a conscience. Then we have these beasties:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyd6om8IC4M?rel=0

The point I'm illustrating is made in the first twenty seconds but feel free to watch it right through if you like.

Even if no other animal on the planet has a conscience, that still does not imply that it had to come from somewhere outside of us, implanted at some point in our gestation (which raises the question of when this operation occurs?). We are a social species, living and working together - not necessarily in harmony but at least towards the same basic ends. We tend to care what other people think of us; generally speaking, we don't want to feel like an outsider. We also tend to imagine how our actions affect other people, would we like them to happen to us? Thus we will often question our own actions: how would others react if I did this, what would people think of me for doing that? (As for the other, well...) It's called empathy. It's notable that people who display a lack of empathy, actively or otherwise, will often rub people up the wrong way. See my very first comment in this post for a good example. In the worst cases, such individuals get labelled criminals and sociopaths.

As the great philhellenes once said in a video, there is someone I have to face every day who knows everything about me, who judges me and will remember everything I do. He's in the mirror.

(April 22, 2012 at 6:27 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: Virtual particles, quantum mechanics. Stephen Hawking and Lawrence Krauss go deep and going deeper into explaining it. A god isn't required for a universe to exist it seems.

oh sure.....

old debunked argument.....

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig...smith.html

John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment, ". . . the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440). The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause.

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(April 22, 2012 at 6:27 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I've rejected the claim due to a lack of evidence to support it.

So any credible evidence on hand for naturalism ?

I'm done here. Have fun poking this guy. Anyone want my pointy stick?

Quote:oh sure.....

old debunked argument.....

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig...smith.html

William Craig is one of the biggest idiots to walk the earth, he's not worth listening to. No basis in science at all.

Give it a good watch. I've got to turn in, it's getting kinda late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PL...H8ufOavkVg

Quote:So any credible evidence on hand for naturalism ?

It's all in science. All one has to do is study it.
I'm not a teacher or professor. If you're really interested in debating this sort of thing, you'd listen to both sides.

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(April 22, 2012 at 6:52 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm done here. Have fun poking this guy. Anyone want my pointy stick?

Yeah I'm done with this one.

(April 22, 2012 at 6:20 pm)Jireh Wrote: you missed completely my point. Again : How can you say, Hitler was objectively wrong, in killing Jews, if he thought it was right ? Why should your opinion be more true, about what is wrong, and what is right, if God does not exist , than Hitlers perception of what is right, and what is wrong?

I didn't miss your point little one, nor did I say that Hitler was objectively wrong. PAY ATTENTION! In fact, I said that some people (anti-Semites) applaud and praise Hitler's actions as Good even though I, and much of the world, found them to be Evil. Furthermore, this proves my point because Hitler was using the "objective morality" of Christianity to further his Nazi cause!

My point was and remains, no one here cares what you think about our standards of morality when the Christian standards are often set LOWER than that of us "heathens." Ramble on about what ever you want, but don't expect anyone here to take you seriously when you're saddling us with the choices of Adolf Hitler ... a known, practicing CHRISTIAN!!!!

(April 22, 2012 at 6:52 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm done here. Have fun poking this guy. Anyone want my pointy stick?

Does it have an exploding tip?

Quote:why ?

Because across the centuries you and countless other dickheads like you have failed to demonstrate that there is such a thing as a god. Any god. Or a devil.
Any devil.

Frankly, all you can offer is absurd mental gymnastics which, at the end of the day, are totally fucking meaningless.

(April 22, 2012 at 7:45 pm)padraic Wrote:

(April 22, 2012 at 6:52 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm done here. Have fun poking this guy. Anyone want my pointy stick?

Does it have an exploding tip?

Depends who's holding it. And how she's handling it.