Actually, I did tell you why they "got rid" of Mr. Morgan, but in fairness it's not like this was ever proven. You weren't interested enough to investigate the matter, or you have a poor understanding of the US in the 1800's.

It's a social club, no argument is required, it is by definition a social club. Any group of people are likely to have interests. That isn't enough to hang them (or persecute them in any way). They must actually do something, and you must prove that they did (this, of course, coming from the perspective of our system of law, clearly you folks feel like you can string people up on a whim. No worries, that's your shitty concept of justice and if you want to live by it be my guest).

Your paranoia is not sufficient.

Quote:Actually, I did tell you why they "got rid" of Mr. Morgan, but in fairness it's not like this was ever proven. You weren't interested enough to investigate the matter, or you have a poor understanding of the US in the 1800's.

And you really think that this was due to his accusations of devil worship?
Even if, they obviously made him disappear. Maybe they did kill him, maybe they did not, but it was obvious that it was an effort to keep their inner workings secret. This alone serves as a proof for me that they're not just a social club of no real importance as you claim.

Quote:Any group of people are likely to have interests.

Indeed, but what kind of interests? It's not like a kennel club, or a golf club.
They have interests in terms of financial or political interests, gains.
Not an interest in politics of finance if you can understand under which context I'm using the word "interest".

Quote:That isn't enough to hang them (or persecute them in any way).

They weren't "persecuted" as you say, for their banding together.
They were ordered to close down their lodges due to their activity in politics and finance, as these were not in favour of the current revolution in Turkey, and therefore, not in the interests of the Turkish people.
But this is not exclusive to us Turks, or to say, the Italians or Russians.
They only act in their own interests, not in the interests of others, except under circumstances that they can benefit from.

Quote:They must actually do something, and you must prove that they did

They certainly do not do things illegal, at least openly, or something that can be traced back to them by means of law, nor do they involve themselves in petty crimes like murder.
But neither do corporates, of many of whom might be masons or not.
The fact that they do not practice such things doesn't mean that they do not do things that are detestable. Like for example, who can tell me that the privatisation of a land on which are forests are simply the result of a talk between one mason who is buying and another mason selling, even though that piece of land was not open for construction of buildings?

Quote:this, of course, coming from the perspective of our system of law, clearly you folks feel like you can string people up on a whim. No worries, that's your shitty concept of justice and if you want to live by it be my guest

True justice was served when their lodges were closed and their activities were stopped. Your perspective of system of law clearly isn't really in your favor either, seeing how you're constantly bragging about how the law protects your rich folks, while stripping down the impoverished.
Now come and tell me that our law, at least the law that was put forward by our founding fathers, promising free education and free healthcare, while creating jobs, secured by the government was obviously less disposed towards justice than your law that supposedly protects freemasonry. Pah. Freemasons are still shady, unknowable people.
Their loyalty to anything but their own and monetary gain still stands.
I still do believe that no organisation that is just a social club that comes together to "socialize" on certain things would go through the trouble to keep their inner workings and activities secret.

It's not like it was ever proven. People were not convicted, perhaps, but I guess you have a better explanation for his sudden disappereance.

Quote:Your paranoia is not sufficient.

Paranoia, yes? If I were as paranoid as you'd claim, I could bring forward the even more wacky theories surrounding freemasonry.
Instead I think that they are just an international organisation that is bent on making more money, and securing it's own interests and that of it's members.
This is why I oppose it, just like I oppose any such factions.

(April 26, 2012 at 11:12 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Instead I think that they are just an international organisation that is bent on making more money, and securing it's own interests and that of it's members.

You've just described every large business corporation in the world. Must they all be sinister secret organisations?

That was the claim Mr. Morgan made, that was his big revelation, and in that portion of American history it would have provided sufficient motive for murder, yep. Like I said, clearly ignorant of our history, you're forgiven. They remain a social club.

Yes, it is. You think the folks at golf clubs and kennel clubs don't have "interests" in politics or finance individually and collectively? Jesus Christ Mehm.....

They probably should have been told to cease those activities, rather than be told to cease assembling, again, our perspective of justice and liberty, your shitty system is your own business. Threats of hangings, pretty far down the list as well. Criticizing others for looking to their own interests all the while extolling the virtues of the state looking out specifically for your own is a bankrupt line of argumentation Mehm.

More assertions along the lines of your paranoia. Social club. Are you going to make your "Protocols of the Elders of Freemasonry" case or moan about something else?

Bring em out, they're clearly bouncing around in your head. Why ruin a good charge for a long running joke?

(April 26, 2012 at 11:19 am)Stimbo Wrote:

(April 26, 2012 at 11:12 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Instead I think that they are just an international organisation that is bent on making more money, and securing it's own interests and that of it's members.

You've just described every large business corporation in the world. Must they all be sinister secret organisations?

They might be, or might not be. But I don't think that it's just reserved to the corporates. It extends to politicians, media patrons, or people who are socially influential, like pop-stars and etc.
I'm not saying that every large corporate is a mason. But I'm sure that there are several very high and influential people amongst them, since they never were really liked neither in the east, nor the west.

Quote:Yes, it is. You think the folks at golf clubs and kennel clubs don't have "interests" in politics or finance individually and collectively? Jesus Christ Mehm....

Even if they do, they do so on a personal scale, and golf and dogs are not really interests that are comperable to the interests that one must have if one joins the freemasons...Like going through a weird ritual of some sort, getting his breast pierced by a knife and swearing loyalty and etc...
You could say that these ring like conspiracy theories, but an illustration is present on the wikipedia page you've posted...

Quote:They probably should have been told to cease those activities, rather than be told to cease assembling, again, our perspective of justice and liberty, your shitty system is your own business.

Well, they were told by our Sultan Abdulhamid Khan the second, but they did not listen, obviously.
Finally, our founder Atatürk has had the last of them. He told them to close down their lodges and disperse.
Your perspective of justice and liberty is really moot to me. It doesn't really work for you beyond a symbolic gesture. It's there to fool you, nothing more. What can I say, it's the same here, since we had seen it fit to copy your views on liberty and justice. It goes no further than to disperse justice on the basis on how influential and rich a person is, nor to grant it liberty further than that.
We Turkists have no liberty in Turkey, while our enemies now enjoy every liberty granted to them by the false justice system that works in their favour, not ours.

Quote:Criticizing others for looking to their own interests all the while extolling the virtues of the state looking out specifically for your own is a bankrupt line of argumentation Mehm.

Looking out for their own interests in the expense of our nation and people?
Such people are nothing more than traitors in my eyes, may they be masons or not. Masons are just more dangerous than others due to their interwoven connections and links with eachother. They are better organized and secretive.
Closing down their legal representatives does not cease their activities, but at least lays a few stones on their path until we can identify who these individuals are, and deal with them one by one.

Quote:Are you going to make your "Protocols of the Elders of Freemasonry" case or moan about something else?

We do not moan, friend. We act. For now, we just bide our time until we can regain our strength, politically. And when we do, we will have both the public and the army on our side. Who could dare to stand against us?
They either turn to the light, or they perish in the darkness.

(April 26, 2012 at 8:01 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Besides, I guess those people don't really hang out there and go through all this secrecy to simply get together and play golf.
Or they don't uphold this grand secrecy for just the kicks of it.
[---]
Even if they do, they do so on a personal scale, and golf and dogs are not really interests that are comperable to the interests that one must have if one joins the freemasons...Like going through a weird ritual of some sort, getting his breast pierced by a knife and swearing loyalty and etc...

Oh dear Mehmet, you've let your fantasies run amok.

First of all, no rituals contain human bloodshed or beheading chickens. And you're not swearing loyalty per se, all you promise to do is to keep certain aspects of the work in the order secret. At least I am free to leave my order any time I like and I can do so without sacrificing my firstborn son as payment or something similar to it.
Secondly, the rituals are kept a secret, because when you reach the maturity to see the next stage, it will be a revelation of sorts to you. It's about the journey you make as human, how you strive to become a better person in order to be of service to those around you. It's about learning something new about yourself in the process. It's about building a good world for ourselves and those around you. It's about hearing ancient kernels of wisdom, meant to be pondered upon. Now, if you would get all the knowledge that one in the higher ranks at once, it would be harder to take in and there would be no journey, no growth. That is why the rituals are secret, not because they are something shady, it's because all can know in the proper time.

Politicians, media patrons, and "socially-influential" people...lol, like popstars. That's quite the roster of potential undesireables you have for your little witch-hunt. You've been taking pagaes out of the american book after all. One Senator Joseph McCarthy could help you refine this approach.
-"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Fraternal Order of Freemasonry, answer the question sir!"-

Boooooooo, sounds spooooky.....get a grip.

You didn't have to explain to me how moot my system of justice and liberty is to you. You're a fascist, I am not, that much is a given.

Traitors without and traitors within. Conspiracies everywhere....tinfoil hat engaged.

You act? Still looking forward to those hangings are we?

Quote:First of all, no rituals contain human bloodshed or beheading chickens.

Really, it does not matter. I'm just stating what I've seen in the media.
It might not be true, as I don't think that such serious and fine people would go through occultic stuff.

Quote:And you're not swearing loyalty per se, all you promise to do is to keep certain aspects of the work in the order secret.

Well, that is generally similar to "swearing loyalty". Without loyalty, how can you expect a person to keep the secrets of an order?

Quote: At least I am free to leave my order any time I like and I can do so without sacrificing my firstborn son as payment or something similar to it.

I'm hearing this from you for the first time.

Quote:Secondly, the rituals are kept a secret, because when you reach the maturity to see the next stage, it will be a revelation of sorts to you.

Friend, I'm not really interested in any rituals. Likewise, when the furia about secret scientology rituals and revelations were released, I was rather disinterested in knowing what they held within themselves.
All I care about is what kind of an influence on the outer world the freemasons have.

Quote:It's about the journey you make as human, how you strive to become a better person in order to be of service to those around you. It's about learning something new about yourself in the process. It's about building a good world for ourselves and those around you. It's about hearing ancient kernels of wisdom, meant to be pondered upon.

Sounds great, but really, I really don't know why one would be so secretive about these.

Quote:Now, if you would get all the knowledge that one in the higher ranks at once, it would be harder to take in and there would be no journey, no growth. That is why the rituals are secret, not because they are something shady, it's because all can know in the proper time.

I've heard about a certain similar thing in a certain similar, "religion", not a fraternity, maybe, but something newer than freemasonry.

(April 26, 2012 at 12:46 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Really, it does not matter. I'm just stating what I've seen in the media.

*scoff*
Right, because the media is not know for blackening anything they find extraordinary?

Quote:Well, that is generally similar to "swearing loyalty". Without loyalty, how can you expect a person to keep the secrets of an order?

It's called trust.

Quote:Sounds great, but really, I really don't know why one would be so secretive about these.

Quote:Now, if you would get all the knowledge that one in the higher ranks at once, it would be harder to take in and there would be no journey, no growth. That is why the rituals are secret, not because they are something shady, it's because all can know in the proper time.

Quote:Right, because the media is not know for blackening anything they find extraordinary?

They can also do the exact same thing.

Quote:It's called trust.

Which is the basis of loyalty.

Quote:Now, if you would get all the knowledge that one in the higher ranks at once, it would be harder to take in and there would be no journey, no growth. That is why the rituals are secret, not because they are something shady, it's because all can know in the proper time.

I'm just asking why these are not open to the public.
Like, those who do not want to join the freemasons can learn about them aswell. Like, knowledge is shared throughout the world, I mean.
So that we could at least speak about them other than through speculations.
But as I said, their doctrine is not really what I'm concerned of.