(May 13, 2012 at 2:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm trying to find purgatory in my bible.....damn, doesn't seem to be in there. Well, no matter, it's not like I look to the bible to fact check things. There's plenty of shit that isn't in there but exists nevertheless, so I guess this is just one of those things?

Well, no, it is in the Bible as I mentioned before. But yes, you are right--not everything is in the Bible, so even if it wasn't in the Bible, that would have no bearing on the issue. For Catholics at least, Oral and Written Tradition are both equally important and inspired.

(May 13, 2012 at 9:01 am)Rhythm Wrote: What makes a person perfect? IOW, what causes people to lose the ability to do evil?

I would agree, those things are not compatible with the idea of hell (insofar as it is commonly presented), but that doesn't answer the question (only makes it more pressing). Why are people unable to repent in hell? What causes them to lose the ability to repent?

Sounds to me like both cases are situations where people no longer have an ability or trait which has been claimed to be the benchmark for this life. Indeed the entire point and purpose. Is the ability to choose yay or nay removed upon death, if so why, and if so why can't the same be done during this life in choice situations by the same agent?

I think perfection arises from a perfect love of God, so that your own will is enjoined to his, in the same way as our Blessed Mother. They still have the "ability" to do evil, but they don't. And the same thing is true of a living person--a perfect living person does not do evil.

And people again, cannot repent in hell because if they had goodness within them, that allowed them to feel remorse for evil deeds; they would not be in Hell. When you reject all goodness, that includes that goodness within you as well. And the same is true of a living person--a living person who rejects all goodness would never repent or feel remorse. They might be angry if any consequences of their evil spill onto them, but actually out of genuine love for God and his fellow humans? No.

Try flipping it around: its not that a perfect person can't do evil, its that a person who does evil can't be perfect. And its not that a fully wicked person can't feel remorse, its that a person who feels genuine remorse can't be fully wicked.

(May 13, 2012 at 11:03 am)Thor Wrote: Please explain how we can possibly know that someone is in "heaven". Therefore, isn't it rather presumptuous of people to declare someone to be a "Saint"?

You are correct that this isn't something decided by people, but it is something which is recognized by the Church through the process of canonization, which you can look up if you are interested. The Church is protected on matters of faith/morals, and recognizing the Saints is a part of that, afaik.

Quote:Oh, so it only makes you somewhat evil?

Um maybe? Not necessarily? Like I said a lot goes into being "evil", and taking any sin and disembodying it from any context tells me nothing. I certainly can't read hearts. In the Catholic Church its a taboo even to say the most outwardly wicked people are in Hell. (Those who tried to say that of, say, Osama bin Laden were reprimanded). There is no process for that. All you can do is hope for the best.

Quote:I've asked believers "if Hitler genuinely expressed remorse for his actions just before he died, would he be in heaven?" and they almost always respond "yes". Do you disagree?

A perfect contrition? That he honestly and truly hates not only his own evils, but all evils, not out of fear of Hell or want of Heaven, but out of love for God and all that is good? Then sure. Absolutely. Such a thing is very rare.

Otherwise if he just feels generically bad about what he did and confesses his sins properly, he would go to Purgatory, the same as most devout people who die. I can only imagine that he would have a long way to go.

Quote:Am I now doomed to hell for eternity?

Haha I was wondering what you were on about.

No you aren't. That isn't what sinning against the Holy Spirit entails. There are 6 sins against the Holy Spirit which preclude forgiveness: despair of salvation, presumption of God's mercy, to impugn the known truth, envy at another's spiritual good, obstinacy in sin, and final impenitence.

If you want to learn more about that, I really like the Douay Catechism of 1649, pg. 109 in that pdf.

Hey Azia, quick question to demonstrate your mindset;
The Pope, is he the "voice" of the omnipotent, always correct and all powerful being that is God?

(May 14, 2012 at 5:59 am)Aiza Wrote:

(May 13, 2012 at 2:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm trying to find purgatory in my bible.....damn, doesn't seem to be in there. Well, no matter, it's not like I look to the bible to fact check things. There's plenty of shit that isn't in there but exists nevertheless, so I guess this is just one of those things?

Well, no, it is in the Bible as I mentioned before. But yes, you are right--not everything is in the Bible, so even if it wasn't in the Bible, that would have no bearing on the issue. For Catholics at least, Oral and Written Tradition are both equally important and inspired.

I like oral, as I suspect most catholic priests do.

(May 14, 2012 at 5:59 am)Aiza Wrote: Well, no, it is in the Bible as I mentioned before. But yes, you are right--not everything is in the Bible, so even if it wasn't in the Bible, that would have no bearing on the issue. For Catholics at least, Oral and Written Tradition are both equally important and inspired.

No, it isn't. The last bit doesn't worry you? The notion that a centuries old game of "he said she said" is just as important as "god said" doesn't worry you? It would worry me, if I believed in such things, and wanted to make sure I pleased such creatures.

Quote:I think perfection arises from a perfect love of God, so that your own will is enjoined to his, in the same way as our Blessed Mother. They still have the "ability" to do evil, but they don't. And the same thing is true of a living person--a perfect living person does not do evil.

And people again, cannot repent in hell because if they had goodness within them, that allowed them to feel remorse for evil deeds; they would not be in Hell. When you reject all goodness, that includes that goodness within you as well. And the same is true of a living person--a living person who rejects all goodness would never repent or feel remorse. They might be angry if any consequences of their evil spill onto them, but actually out of genuine love for God and his fellow humans? No.

Try flipping it around: its not that a perfect person can't do evil, its that a person who does evil can't be perfect. And its not that a fully wicked person can't feel remorse, its that a person who feels genuine remorse can't be fully wicked.

I think perfection arises from blueberry waffles. But that is neither here nor there. So people could potentially do evil in heaven, sounds fair enough. Would they then be sent to hell or purgatory supposing that they did decide to commit evil while in heaven?

Your description of hell makes it sound like a pretty empty place. You'd have to stand a lot of people up against a wall to find a single one that "can't feel remorse". Similarly, you'd be hard pressed to find a single person who had no "goodness within them" -cue the way serial killer's mothers blather on about how sweet their boy was. I bet he was, except for the whole eating people bit.

Some things piss me off about christianity, but there are some things that just make me laugh.

I rather love the Magic Factor when Heaven comes into the conversation.

Free will disappears magically because we suddenly won't have personal desires anymore ... magically.
And people will just magically be content doing the same thing for all of eternity. Keeping in mind that not all christians in Heaven were gloriously devout while alive on earth. Many were saved as gullible children and just went with it for fear of being burned. Some christians didn't even attend church all that often and yet are magically going to love worshiping jesus for eternity. They won't have free will anymore, but magically, they won't care about not having their free will. Their god will magically make them happy and content with their golden shackles on.

My mother-in-law is a wonderfully kind woman but she's as bright as bag of hair.
She LOVES herself some Jesus and is ALWAYS ready to talk about the sweet love of god (devout as hell) and even she once asked me, "Do you think we'll have to worship Jesus all day long? - I don't think I'd want to do it all the time."

And this is someone who seriously LOVES everything Christian. Magic is an illusion and if your Heaven actually did exist -- you should be terrified.


Still, it makes me laugh.

@Cinjin, heaven sounds boring as fuck

(May 14, 2012 at 11:09 am)Mosrhun Wrote: @Cinjin, heaven sounds boring as fuck

.. scary.. sounds terrifying, don't forget the creatures full of eyes with loads of wings on chanting Glory Glory Glory .. for eternity while God sits (he gets tired sometimes I guess) on his throne lapping it all up.

If that biblical image of heaven doesn't put the shits up you I don't know what will.

(May 14, 2012 at 11:00 am)Cinjin Wrote: ... and even she once asked me, "Do you think we'll have to worship Jesus all day long? I don't think I'd want to do it all the time."

Personally, I cannot imagine ever wanting to stop worshiping the Lord and Savior. An eternity worshiping him: it almost seems not long enough.

Quote:Hey Azia, quick question to demonstrate your mindset;

Hey, Azia....why did Pedopope keep transferring pervert priests around Bavaria instead of calling the cops?

In the New Church, we look forward to an eternity of performing useful services perfectly suited to what we love and enjoy doing.