Just reportin' what was observed.

Just sayin'

Alter, I didn't say I was incapable of understand or researching the scriptures. Trust me on this; and while doing so, drop the ego. I am enquiring after your belief, based on the assumption that your interpretation of the scriptures is correct. That in no way requires me to answer your questions, or research the validity of your claims. I am asking you to clarify your position, before I answer the questions. To give a bit more reasoning as to why I choose to debate this way; I have often observed Christians using loaded questions, in order to make the person answering look as though they are stupid. Furthermore, I don't generally debate scripture anymore for the very reasons you have given - I don't have enough knowledge on the subject. When I do; which I assure you is something this is guaranteed to happen, I will be happy to debate with you on a level playing field.

So here's where I'm at. On this very thread there are Christians who seem to be in disagreement over both the meaning and context of your questions. So, I do not think it is unreasonable for me, a non-Christian, to ask for clarification, when your own brethren don't seem to know what you're driving at. As for misleading religions. That is the problem I have with all religions. There are people who are simply incapable of understanding translations and context, due to a number of factors. These people, through no fault of their own, will hypothetically end up following the wrong path. In many cases, by trying to be faithful, they will fall short of the grace of God. That, to me, does not make a shred of sense.

LOL, what would I have to change? Can you give me a reason that I'll be sent to hell that doesn't make your petty little god sound like a complete and utter failure? I think not.

(Rhetorical, you don't like me-ergo your god doesn't like me, you would like to see me in hell-ergo your god will send me there......pathetic. Do me a favor, keep your bdsm fantasies about me to yourself)

Even though I remain suspicious of the OP, I will for the benefit of my brothers and sisters I will explain the New Church approach to biblical symbolism. Every term and phrase in the Word expresses an inner meaning that correspondences with a spiritual truth about our Lord. These spiritual meanings add to the literary and historical meanings that convey more basic instruction.

Passages related to fire are particularly clear that this is so it corresponds with love. Love, either good or bad, is the inward fire, as seen in some representative examples from the Word: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that cometh after me . . . shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt 3:11) All these refer to the love that filles our hearts when we recieve Him.

The God that answereth by fire, let him be God. (1 Kings 18:24) The angel of the Lord appeared unto Moses in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. (Exodus 3:2) The Ancient of days did sit: . . . his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. (Dan. 7:9) ...his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace. (Rev. 1: 14, 15) In these and many other passages we read about how our Lord radiates love.

And as we learned in grade school, fire can be both friend or foe. The wicked and damned burn with evil loves. These consuming evil passions are the fires of hell. And if the fires of evil passion are fed and encouraged while we live here on earth, we shall not be willing to have them extinguished in the afterlife. The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone. (Rev. 21:8) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world...and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13: 40,42) Have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:24) Their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:44) ...and He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matt. 3:12)

And yet we read in the Word that our Lord has promised us victory over evil. In the following passages strengh from our Lord allows us to pass unhurt through the excitement of the world and subdue the evil passions in our hearts: I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. (Isa. 43:2) We went through fire and through water; but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place. (Ps. 64:12)

The conflict in us between the flames of evil passion and the fire of the Lord's love, if we are faithful in the temptation, will purify us of the evil: Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. (Isa 48:10) I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried.(Zech. 13:9)

The same approach to interpretation applies to the second death. Just as the earthly body dies in the first death, so also our spirts die when we cut ourselves off from our Lord's love which is the source of our life.

(May 23, 2012 at 6:29 am)gringoperry Wrote: Alter, I didn't say I was incapable of understand or researching the scriptures.

ALTER2EGO -to- GRINGO PERRY:
I never said you were incapable of understanding and researching. In fact, I know you are capable of doing both, that's why I said what I did to you. My exact words to you were as follows:

(May 23, 2012 at 12:01 am)Alter2Ego Wrote: You don't have time to properly research my questions and so you will "concede" that I'm correct! Then I guess religious truth is not that important to you. Based on what you wrote above, you are setting yourself up to get conned into believing every false religious teaching that's presented to you.

(May 23, 2012 at 6:29 am)gringoperry Wrote: Trust me on this; and while doing so, drop the ego. I am enquiring after your belief, based on the assumption that your interpretation of the scriptures is correct. That in no way requires me to answer your questions, or research the validity of your claims. I am asking you to clarify your position, before I answer the questions.

ALTER2EGO -to- GRINGO PERRY:
You are not supposed to assume anyone is correct. That's what I told you previously, and I quoted it above as a reminder. You are supposed to approach with caution and test out everything people say about the Bible by comparing it against what's written in the Judeo-Christian Bible. If the Bible doesn't back up what they are saying—no matter how smooth the person comes across—you should reject what they are telling you.

That's how people get caught up in destructive cults. They lap up whatever some slickster tells them. Your only protection is your personal familiarity with what's in the scriptures, meaning you have to read the Bible and know what it says. Even if you don't understand what the Bible says, your familiarity with what's written therein will put you in a position to see red flags when people start making false claims about what is or is not in the Bible.

I gave scriptures in my opening post that will help anyone reason on the scriptures, regardless of their belief system. The scriptures are consistent, whereas people with different belief systems are not consistent. But because the scriptures are consistent, the scriptures are able to expose wrong beliefs among people who consider themselves Christians.

"{16} All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for SETTING THINGS STRAIGHT, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

I happen to know from experience that some people don't want to be corrected by the scriptures. They don’t care what the Bible says. Their love affair with the belief system transcends the scriptures that they claim they have so much respect for. I'm not applying this statement to you. It's a generalized statement that you should be aware of in your own discussions with people who stubbornly refuse to back down from false religious teachings—even after they've been shown that the belief system is wrong.


I will respond to another part of you post shortly.

I assume that this will make you happy, Alter2, but your fucking posts are making me very tempted to make it so you cannot post in different colored fonts. I'm not entirely sure I can figure it out, but I'm pretty good at pitching fits. Please stop raping my eyes.

When I see all this loved up bible nonsense it makes me want to go quote some of the more interesting parts of the bible. You know like "I [Jesus] will kill her children with death." 2:23 Revelations

(May 23, 2012 at 6:29 am)gringoperry Wrote: I am asking you to clarify your position, before I answer the questions.

ALTER2EGO -to- GRINGO PERRY:
In my Opening Post I presented my position, and then I quoted several scriptures to prove my point. How will anyone know if my position has some truth to it unless they read my OP carefully and grasp what I said, and then respond to the 8-questions with logic? My opening post is my calling card.

Questions 1 through 4 are based upon the scriptures in my OP. Questions 5-8 are viewpoint questions in which I am asking for the reader's viewpoint. Once I know someone's viewpoint, I can then understand where they are coming from in terms of their preconceived ideas (their belief system). If I perceive their viewpoint is based upon false religious teachings, I will then direct them to other scriptures to help them reason on the scriptures and correct their thinking with the scriptures.

I will never tell a person: "You are wrong because I think so" or "it's my opinion that you are wrong." This is not about me and my opinion. This is about religious truths found in Jehovah's written word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. In other words, whenever I correct someone, I will tell them the scriptural reason for their error and present them with scriptures to help them see that they are being corrected by what's written in the Bible.

"{16} All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for SETTING THINGS STRAIGHT, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)


I will answer the remainder of your post later.

(May 23, 2012 at 12:46 pm)Alter2Ego Wrote:

(May 23, 2012 at 6:29 am)gringoperry Wrote: I am asking you to clarify your position, before I answer the questions.

ALTER2EGO -to- GRINGO PERRY:
In my Opening Post I presented my position, and then I quoted several scriptures to prove my point. How will anyone know if my position has some truth to it unless they read my OP carefully and grasp what I said, and then respond to the 8-questions with logic? My opening post is my calling card.

Questions 1 through 4 are based upon the scriptures in my OP. Questions 5-8 are viewpoint questions in which I am asking for the reader's viewpoint. Once I know someone's viewpoint, I can then understand where they are coming from in terms of their preconceived ideas (their belief system). If I perceive their viewpoint is based upon false religious teachings, I will then direct them to other scriptures to help them reason on the scriptures and correct their thinking with the scriptures.

I will never tell a person: "You are wrong because I think so" or "it's my opinion that you are wrong." This is not about me and my opinion. This is about religious truths found in Jehovah's written word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. In other words, whenever I correct someone, I will tell them the scriptural reason for their error and present them with scriptures to help them see that they are being corrected by what's written in the Bible.

"{16} All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for SETTING THINGS STRAIGHT, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)


I will answer the remainder of your post later.

Fair enough, give me a bit of time and I'll go through the questions and answer them. Before I do, I will state that I am going to read from the KJV, as is.