(May 31, 2012 at 6:55 am)StatCrux Wrote: Can people stop putting words into my mouth, I never said "dependant", "essential" or "restricted to"

You conveniently ignored the part where I said people often use religious symbolism to market their work to the ignorant masses.

Quote:I didn't say it was restricted to religion. I am saying that great works of art are more likely to come from a mind that is open to the transcendent nature of reality, usually a belief in some form of God. Is poetry logical?, yet it can contain truths.

And great works of science have come from bright atheist minds. In unlocking mysteries in so many areas.
I happen to be inspired by Lawrence Krauss and Stephen Hawking. They inspire me to learn more about the cosmos. To have a far greater understanding of it.

(May 31, 2012 at 7:09 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(May 31, 2012 at 7:08 am)StatCrux Wrote: I think this is related to life having a meaning and purpose. Anyone who thinks life has no meaning is unlikely to produce great art, unless of course it is depicting the meaningless nature of existence. Religious thinking sees meaning and purpose which is conducive to creating great art. The problem for the atheist is that ultimately life has no meaning. If you then say that you create your own meaning, that is the definition of delusional thinking, unless you truly believe in your own meaning..which is putting you in the realm of faith, faith in no God.

Life has the meaning you give it, period.

So you fit my example perfectly.

(May 31, 2012 at 6:47 am)StatCrux Wrote:

(May 31, 2012 at 6:38 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: Nobody said that. We said it was an irrelevant question.

Reverse the question.

Would great art exist without religion?

1. Great art exists that is not inspired by religion
2. Religion inspires great pieces of art
3. If there were no religion, great art would still exist.
4. Therefore religion is non-essential to great art.

/end.

I didn't use the word "essential" I said religion inspires people to create great works of art. Its the visible expression of connecting with the transcendent and luminous. Atheism creates a mindset that closes peoples minds to that aspect of existence and stifles creativity. Is it merely coincidence that the majority of great works of art, poetry, music etc are created from a mind that believes in some from of transcendent reality? While not "essential" it definitely is conducive to great works of art.

Aah, now you're trying to extrapolate a faulty argument.

You state that atheism inspires no art, and we agree with you on the basis it is an irrelevant question as much as lack of belief in aliens/faeries etc inspires art.

Now you are saying atheism restricts art, and that's a different matter. We can provide plenty of great pieces of art created by atheists, not because they are atheist, because its irrelevant to inspiration.

Bear in mind, much of classical art and literature was created in a time where to declare yourself atheist against religious belief was a death sentence, so its impossible to really state in many cases what their private internal feelings on the matter were.

Da Vinci for instance, valued reason over faith and learning about the natural world. If he wasn't a great artist, he would probably have been a great scientist. Who's to say that in more enlightened times he would have had the freedom to declare a different point of view.

Now, if you look at more modern history where atheism is not a capital offence, you can see clearly that artists are creating great art regardless of their belief.

So again, your religion is irrelevant to art, as the only difference would have been, great artists would have created art garnered from a wider range of inspirations.

What is your reasoning that religion is conducive to great work of art? It's an unfalsifiable argument, since they have already created these works of art.. now.. what amazing vistas of nature have we lost because they were busy being paid to paint yet another Mary and Jesus picture?

Frankly, Art has suffered from religion in my opinion, the finances of the classical art world dominated by religion has created derivative pieces inspired by the needs of the religious, rather than true inspiration.

(May 31, 2012 at 7:02 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Well YES! Atheism does inspire tremendously!! It stops one from being a blind idiot and swallowing pre-digested information and leads one to sources science, scepticism. methodology and reason..leading on to think for oneself... unlike the religious-theists who swallow ANYTHING they are given!

As an aside, I love your sig, and I found that quote on Infidel Guy's site. He is a huge fan of Hypatia. That quote inspired this atheist to write a poem about her. It is in the link in my sig on somewhere in that thread. I had to move all my poetry to Rational Responders because IG was updating his forums.

At the time that particular poem had 4,000 views, in two months, and surpassed the two year old poem that starts that thread about the Macbeth Act 5 Scene 5 "Out Out Brief Candle".

(May 31, 2012 at 7:13 am)Ace Otana Wrote: And great works of science have come from bright atheist minds

Have you seen the list of famous scientists that were religious?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chr...in_science

(May 31, 2012 at 6:55 am)StatCrux Wrote: Can people stop putting words into my mouth, I never said "dependant", "essential" or "restricted to"

(May 31, 2012 at 6:24 am)StatCrux Wrote:

(May 31, 2012 at 6:19 am)Ace Otana Wrote: The only way I can answer is to state that I live my life like any other......just without religion. I inspire myself. That's all that needs to be said on my part.

That would be a "no" then...

Oh yes, one last thing. You're a hypocrite. You started putting words in peoples mouths, then played martyr when you felt it was done to you.

At least you have implied several times that without religion there would be no great art.

Please correct me then; Are you saying that Religion has simply provided the focus for great pieces of art, but the artists would have created amazing pieces of art anyway. Confirm or deny?

(May 31, 2012 at 7:08 am)StatCrux Wrote: I think this is related to life having a meaning and purpose. Anyone who thinks life has no meaning is unlikely to produce great art, unless of course it is depicting the meaningless nature of existence. Religious thinking sees meaning and purpose which is conducive to creating great art. The problem for the atheist is that ultimately life has no meaning. If you then say that you create your own meaning, that is the definition of delusional thinking, unless you truly believe in your own meaning..which is putting you in the realm of faith, faith in no God.

Life is not without meaning. We are sapient beings capable of understanding our surroundings. We can become far more than we are if we want. Through knowledge and technology, we can push back countless boundaries, but of course if you think that's delusional then maybe we should just fall to our knees and hope there is another life after this one that's better. Somehow, I find more meaning in living this life than hoping for another.
If this life is all we've got, would you really want to throw it away because you can't find any meaning in it? Or that this reality isn't the way you want it? To think countless billions of people will never get the chance to live as you and I. To experience what we can, yet you like some stuck up snobby rich guy thinks this isn't good enough for you and expects better. It's pathetic.

This is some redundant bullshit. Religion doesn't have the market cornered on art nor inspiration. I assume most atheists aren't much inspired by religion, and since atheism is nothing more or less than a disbelief in deities, what sort of inspiration can be derived from it? Art, after all, is subjective. What looks like a wonderful piece of divinely inspired art to statcrux, is probably going to make me chuckle and start thinking up ways to make blasphemous memes of it.

Inspiration might come from anti-theism, or one's personal philosophy, but atheism isn't meant to inspire. It's only meant to define one's absence of belief in gods. If you can't understand that, read it slower or something.

(May 31, 2012 at 7:19 am)StatCrux Wrote:

(May 31, 2012 at 7:13 am)Ace Otana Wrote: And great works of science have come from bright atheist minds

Have you seen the list of famous scientists that were religious?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chr...in_science

Have you seen the list of famous scientists that were not religious?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ath...technology

Prepared to grow up a little, a lot to ask I know.