Pssst... John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one"

Quote:http://www2.div.ed.ac.uk/courses/Animate...index.html

Wow...what a fucking surprise. The "School of Divinity" parrots xtian bullshit about their fairy tales. Who would have guessed?

Why don't you try reading some stuff by people who disagree with your bullshit just to find out how many lies you have had poured into your head?

(June 2, 2012 at 10:26 pm)Drich Wrote: The trinity explained:

God is a title and not a name as in Mr.. President, or Doctor.
-or-
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three distinct separate but equals deities but only One God.

How does this work? Because the title God describes a governing bodies, and not an individual deity. For instance there is only one Governing body in control of the United States, subdivided into three branches. One government three incarnations of said government. A similar division is found in the God head.

So God is the name of a boyband rather than the name of a solo artist? First time I've heard this, don't suppose you've got any proof at all? What am I saying? Of course you do. :-)

(June 4, 2012 at 5:02 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Pssst... John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one"

Very good I was hoping one of you brought this up, so lets see what that verse looks like in context.
The Shepherd Knows His Sheep

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[b] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Christ is aligning Himself here as being God. If you will not accept Christ's effort in segregating His action from the actions of the Father as being separate in verse 29 on face value then lets turn to the Greek.

In Verse 29 the word for Father in the Greek is πατήρ patēr which means1) generator or male ancestor

a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents

b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David

1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation

c) one advanced in years, a senior

Which clearly denotes a separation from the Word μοι moi which translates to "I, Me, or My."

This is What verse 30 says in the context of the discussion Christ is having with the Jews in the temple/temple grounds:

The question was asked point blank Are you the Christ? Which translates Messiah or savior? They were asking will He (Jesus) be leading a rebellion against Rome. Because it was believed by the Jews that the Messiah was to free them from Roman rule/occupation through a prophet like Moses. Christ did them one better and said He and the Father were indeed One God. Not the same personage. We know this because Christ separated the personage of the Father from the Son in Verse 29 [as I demonstrated in the Greek] But were in fact one God. "I and my Father are one" Tells us that Christ and the Father are both God. This is one of the key passages that tells us that God is a title and not a name. For how else could Christ separate the Works of the Son from the Works of the Father and in the very next breath say they are the same? That would be a literal non-squetor.

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(June 4, 2012 at 7:01 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(June 2, 2012 at 10:26 pm)Drich Wrote: The trinity explained:

God is a title and not a name as in Mr.. President, or Doctor.
-or-
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three distinct separate but equals deities but only One God.

How does this work? Because the title God describes a governing bodies, and not an individual deity. For instance there is only one Governing body in control of the United States, subdivided into three branches. One government three incarnations of said government. A similar division is found in the God head.

So God is the name of a boyband rather than the name of a solo artist? First time I've heard this, don't suppose you've got any proof at all? What am I saying? Of course you do. :-)

Honestly it wasn't till recently that i heard God was a multiple personality deity.

The above post we see passages that seperates the deity of the Father and the deity of the Son. We also see the proclaimation that they still are one. There are several accounts where the deity of the Father, Son and Spirit are shown to be seperate. Yet we are also told that there is only one God. Even in the OT God refers to himself as "we" in most of the narritives given. How can there be a "we" if God was a single deity? Simply put the word God is not a name but a title. This allows for "we" and yet their be only one God. Much like how the Governing body/goverment of the United States is three seperate enties of the Same Goverment.

(June 4, 2012 at 8:02 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 4, 2012 at 7:01 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: So God is the name of a boyband rather than the name of a solo artist? First time I've heard this, don't suppose you've got any proof at all? What am I saying? Of course you do. :-)

Honestly it wasn't till recently that i heard God was a multiple personality deity.

The above post we see passages that seperates the deity of the Father and the deity of the Son. We also see the proclaimation that they still are one. There are several accounts where the deity of the Father, Son and Spirit are shown to be seperate. Yet we are also told that there is only one God. Even in the OT God refers to himself as "we" in most of the narritives given. How can there be a "we" if God was a single deity? Simply put the word God is not a name but a title. This allows for "we" and yet their be only one God. Much like how the Governing body/goverment of the United States is three seperate enties of the Same Goverment.

Theres a problem here.
"Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. (John 10:36-38)"
Gods son. Not part of God, not a member of God. Gods son. He refers to God as a seperate entity, a being. God is refered in this way in many, many passages. Now if you were trying to argue that God and Jesus were seperate entities and the whole Trinity thing was some type of symbolism you might be able to get away with that. The fact of the matter is theres no evidence in the Bible that God is some type of divine organization. At almost every turn it is refered to as a singular being. Unless you were willing to refute these passages, which would make up quite a sizable chunk of the Bible, you cannot claim this to be anything other than your unproven theory on your unproven beliefs.

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.
I'm crying."

@ Welsh cake you stated that Undeceived was here to save the lost and if he was not here for that purpose he would go to hell.
Undeceived, myself or any Christian can not save anyone, that is the work of God, and if we do not try and witness here God will not send us to hell, we are doing the work that God has for us and I'm pretty sure that God has not let you in on what hat might be.

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(June 4, 2012 at 4:29 pm)Thor Wrote:

(June 4, 2012 at 12:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: The point is this, God's love forgives all the sin when believers ask for His forgiveness.

Great! So I can live a life of depravity and sin and then, just before I die, I ask "God" for forgiveness and I get to spend eternity in paradise right beside Mother Theresa. Sweet!

It doesn't work the way you meant it, you left out of your thought process repentance, and you all say we do not think things through.

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(June 4, 2012 at 4:36 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote:

(June 4, 2012 at 4:29 pm)Thor Wrote: Great! So I can live a life of depravity and sin and then, just before I die, I ask "God" for forgiveness and I get to spend eternity in paradise right beside Mother Theresa. Sweet!

Now you're getting it. We Christians like to speak of justice but, in the final analysis, the only crime is disbelief and the only virtue is gullibility. The advantage of following this system of morality is you can do the following:

1. Sin.
2. Ask forgiveness.
3. Sin again.
4. Ask forgiveness again.
5. Look down on atheists as having no morals.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

(June 4, 2012 at 9:11 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Theres a problem here.
"Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. (John 10:36-38)"
Gods son. Not part of God, not a member of God. Gods son. He refers to God as a seperate entity, a being. God is refered in this way in many, many passages. Now if you were trying to argue that God and Jesus were seperate entities and the whole Trinity thing was some type of symbolism you might be able to get away with that. The fact of the matter is theres no evidence in the Bible that God is some type of divine organization. At almost every turn it is refered to as a singular being. Unless you were willing to refute these passages, which would make up quite a sizable chunk of the Bible, you cannot claim this to be anything other than your unproven theory on your unproven beliefs.

Answered in verse 30. You guys love to pick and choose the bible apart and have made very compelling arguments in the tiny little corners of the bible you focus on. However your arguments come completely unraveled when placed in context. Try reading your passages in a context that include verse 30.

The bible is the best textbook bullseye for criticism ever written.

(June 5, 2012 at 12:07 am)Epimethean Wrote: The bible is the best textbook bullseye for criticism ever written.

If it weren't then all would be forced to believe. Which kinda defeats the purpose of the choice we are to make in this life.