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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 3:38 am
(June 10, 2012 at 11:11 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Which is to say you're telling us what the official catholic dogma says - and that is not necessarily what "most christians" actually believe.
This is not to say that I know any better than you, I don't, but it takes a lot of hubris to claim to speak to how much official dogma 1.2 billion people actually accept.
I know you're aware of this thread, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to grasp my meaning.
Most Christians are Catholic. I mean, sure maybe none of them accept this teaching or whatever, but I think pointing out Catholic beliefs is a bit more substantial than "a lot of Christians I met think X".
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 8:44 am
(This post was last modified: June 11, 2012 at 8:45 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Why do you think that? What's substantial about it, and in what way is it not precisely "alot of christians I've met think x" -even if you could demonstrate that they do-?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 11:48 am
(This post was last modified: June 11, 2012 at 12:17 pm by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
(June 11, 2012 at 3:32 am)Godschild Wrote: Roasting could be a possibility. I think something else would make a better plan, seeing there can not be a back-up plan.
Argumentum ad Baculum ad Nauseum.
![[Image: airwank.gif]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/52566856/AFO/airwank.gif)
(June 11, 2012 at 3:38 am)Aiza Wrote: (June 10, 2012 at 11:11 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Which is to say you're telling us what the official catholic dogma says - and that is not necessarily what "most christians" actually believe.
This is not to say that I know any better than you, I don't, but it takes a lot of hubris to claim to speak to how much official dogma 1.2 billion people actually accept.
I know you're aware of this thread, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to grasp my meaning.
Most Christians are Catholic. I mean, sure maybe none of them accept this teaching or whatever, but I think pointing out Catholic beliefs is a bit more substantial than "a lot of Christians I met think X".
The catholic church claims that most are catholic. Most don't believe that tripe. Which means they are not really catholic, the church is just padding its numbers while it hemorrhages its membership. The catholic church is in its death throes.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/fron...96492.html
Quote:THE MAJORITY of Catholics in Ireland do not attend Mass regularly and significant numbers do not believe in key tenets of the church’s teaching, according to an Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll.
The poll results, which come as Ireland hosts the 50th Eucharistic Congress of the Catholic Church this week, show belief in the church is strongest in rural areas but falls off significantly in urban areas.
Despite the fallout from clerical sex abuse scandals, a significant proportion of the country – including non-Catholics – believe the church has had a broadly positive influence on Ireland.
The national survey was undertaken last month among a representative sample of 1,000 voters aged 18 and over.
A total of 89 per cent of respondents were Catholic. The remainder were either not religious (6 per cent), Protestant (3 per cent) or from other faiths.
Fianna Fáil supporters were most likely to be Catholic (95 per cent), followed by Sinn Féin (89 per cent), Fine Gael (88 per cent), Labour (85 per cent) and Greens (58 per cent). Overall, just under a third (31 per cent) of Catholics said they attended Mass at least once a week.
More than two-thirds attended services far less frequently. Some 39 per cent said they either never or very occasionally went to Mass. A further 20 per cent said they attended every two to three months, while 8 per cent went once a fortnight.
Those who attend Mass regularly are twice as likely to live in rural rather than urban areas. They are also more likely to be older and support Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael.
When it comes to the church’s teachings, many Catholics do not subscribe to key tenets such as transubstantiation. Almost two-thirds (62 per cent) believe the blessing of bread and wine during Mass only represents the body and blood of Christ.
Just over a quarter believe it is transformed (26 per cent).
There is division on the issue of the church’s role in education, although Labour supporters are more likely to support Government moves to loosen the church’s control of primary schools.
Also, most Catholics (59 per cent) said they are aware of the Eucharistic Congress, due to take place this week, but a very small minority (4 per cent) planned to attend.
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 12:29 pm
(June 10, 2012 at 10:59 pm)Aiza Wrote: Atheists don't always agree with each other either, but needless to say the majority of Christians are Catholic so when I say what I do I am giving the standard for the bulk of Christianity.
Atheists don't always agree with each other? Absolutely true, in matters of politics, morality, and sports teams. But as for whether or not a god exists, atheists are 100% in agreement. Unlike believers who can't agree on basic crap like what will get you sent to hell, what foods are permissable to eat, what clothes you can wear and what day constitutes "the sabbath".
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 1:36 pm
(June 10, 2012 at 10:59 pm)Aiza Wrote: (June 10, 2012 at 9:39 pm)Cinjin Wrote: The sermon is a dead Catholic's not-so-subtle way to let his parishioners know that they may go ahead and feel rightly justified in telling non-Christians that they're going to burn in hell. Lets call the "sermon" what it is: a bull shit self-righteous pat on the back for all the believers who need some basic validation for their shitty treatment of the entire fucking world.
*shouting* Hey religious dead guy in a stupid hat and an exorbitantly priced dress ----- go fuck yourself.
What? The sermon says absolutely nothing about non-Christians at all, nor do I think that there were too many non-Christians in early 19th century England.
First of all, look up the word subtle. A term or idea doesn't have to ever be mentioned to know that someone is talking about that exact thing.
Secondly, and perhaps this should be first, have you never heard of Islam? The Crusades? The battle between Catholics and Protestants? Or are you really under the impression that these things first developed after this sermon was given? Or perhaps you really are that mentally retarded and you actually think that everyone in England thought that the entire world were Christians. Which would be even more curious, because the question would then have to be asked, "What non-believers is this man in a dress talking about?" .... "after all, EVERYBODY's a Christian!"
Don't be obtuse. It's offensive to all our intelligence.
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 4:38 pm
(June 11, 2012 at 1:36 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Secondly, and perhaps this should be first, have you never heard of Islam? The Crusades? The battle between Catholics and Protestants? Or are you really under the impression that these things first developed after this sermon was given? No, but since the whole sermon centers around those who are uninterested in religious matters so it would be flatly ridiculous to project this sort of agenda onto it. It's just not there. You made it up. Sorry. 
(June 11, 2012 at 11:48 am)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote: The catholic church claims that most are catholic. Most don't believe that tripe. Which means they are not really catholic, the church is just padding its numbers while it hemorrhages its membership. The catholic church is in its death throes.
Um, no, statistically speaking most are Catholic. The Church doesn't "pad its numbers", the Church doesn't have some giant database of numbers of Catholics anywhere. Individual parishes track numbers but they have no incentive to pad numbers since those numbers determine how much money they owe to the archdiocese. Nice attempts at a no true scotsman though.
And lol, "death throes"? Oh geez. 
(June 11, 2012 at 12:29 pm)Thor Wrote: Atheists don't always agree with each other? Absolutely true, in matters of politics, morality, and sports teams. But as for whether or not a god exists, atheists are 100% in agreement.
You sure? 100% Sure?
I think self-identified Christians are more likely to agree on whether or not a God exists than self-identified atheists are! 
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 4:57 pm
(This post was last modified: June 11, 2012 at 4:57 pm by Thor.)
(June 11, 2012 at 4:38 pm)Aiza Wrote: You sure? 100% Sure?
I think self-identified Christians are more likely to agree on whether or not a God exists than self-identified atheists are!
By definition, an atheist does not believe there is a god. Period. I don't know what kind of questions your referenced survey asked, so I can't really comment on it.
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 5:13 pm
(June 9, 2012 at 10:37 pm)Aiza Wrote: Does every theist? The Heaven of Christianity is pretty well defined I think. Describe a day in Heaven then please.
Quote:First of all, "omni-benevolent" is not a word that ever is used to apply to Christianity, even though athiests love that term. Is God benevolent toward evil?
I don't care either way. I don't believe in your god. I don't even know what the hell you're on about for the most part.
Quote:But no, you can remove yourself from God (aka love) on that emotional level, rejecting him in your heart (aka Hell). That is what causes suffering.
Why?
Quote:Lol what? This post suddenly took a very weird turn. It seems like you are projecting.
I didn't think you would make a legitimate response to the previous statement so needless to say I'm not disappointed.
Quote:Plenty of people would "disagree" with me. I am not talking to an annihilationist right now, but if I were I would tell them. "Do what I say or I will kill you" is a non-choice, at least within traditional Christianity.
That's pretty much how the god of the Bible operates.
You got a problem with that?
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 5:59 pm
(This post was last modified: June 11, 2012 at 6:01 pm by Gaest.)
(June 11, 2012 at 3:32 am)Godschild Wrote: I think something else would make a better plan, seeing there can not be a back-up plan.
Well... That´s the old "where will I go when I die?" question, and the best answer I can come up with is "you´ll find out when you die...".
I can imagine a lot of cool afterlives but when I get down to it I don´t know for certain.
What I do know is that my family, and memories of my actions and personality, will live on. Your reputation in life and death will often have consequences to your family and friends - and depending on how you led your life, and how people remember you, those consequences may be good or bad.
IMO, you might as well work on improving the things you care about that you know will be there when you are gone - children, family, friends, community, reputation and so on.
Anyway, that´s my take on the whole afterlife business.
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RE: What Heaven is Like
June 11, 2012 at 6:07 pm
You're not liking your odds at the prospect of joining the Einherjar in Ragnarok?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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