(July 8, 2012 at 4:52 am)cato123 Wrote: Christ never made a difference between moral, ceremonial or judicial laws.

(July 8, 2012 at 5:28 am)cato123 Wrote: We don't have to suppose the distinction, Paul and Barnabas made the distinction for us. Are you now going to argue that Christ was only talking about moral Mosaic law in Matthew 5:18?

If you read on through verse 44, you would find Jesus talking about the spirit of the law, as opposed to the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is summed up in Matthew 22:37-40 (as well as Mark 12:30 and Luke 10:27):

Quote:Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The spirit of the law has never changed. In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." In Acts 15, the Christians were realizing that circumcision was part of the letter of the law used by God as a means of showing allegiance. They found that the real lesson to follow was a "circumcision of the heart". The Mosaic laws weren't just a set of hoops to jump through. They were meant to point humans to a higher good.

(July 8, 2012 at 1:06 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: What I meant in the OP is that it's unjust that some people never had the opportunity to give their lives to Christ yet they have to suffer eternally for something that was out of their control.

What I am saying is that a 'hard life' is not punishment. It's just life. So what if you would not choose a hard life for yourself. If it is your lot to suffer then you wll suffer. The only things is whether you decide to use that gift that suffering to know God better, or as an arguement to entitlement and turn away from God compeletly? Or have you forgotten God's servent Job? He was not being punished in any way shape or form. Job's gain from his trials was a more complete understanding of God. The understanding of Job's lot was also considered to be a gain for every generation that came after him. through a breif period of pain came tremoundous gain. Those who's lot is to suffer, do not suffer in vain.

Quote:The punishment is unjust because there was creation but no provision to ensure eternal life.

How do you know the limits of what has been provided?

[quote] I take it that with an understanding of agapeo this act of evil is justified, yes?[quote/] Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God. Evil is a malicious intent to be outside of God's will. How can this be a sin let alone evil? Unless you speak of a righteousness founded apart from the Righteousness of God. a personal sense of Righteousness or a Self Righteousness/morality based on what YOU think is right and wrong. Is it with self righteousness that you judge God?

(July 8, 2012 at 4:44 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 8, 2012 at 1:06 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: What I meant in the OP is that it's unjust that some people never had the opportunity to give their lives to Christ yet they have to suffer eternally for something that was out of their control.

What I am saying is that a 'hard life' is not punishment. It's just life. So what if you would not choose a hard life for yourself. If it is your lot to suffer then you wll suffer. The only things is whether you decide to use that gift that suffering to know God better, or as an arguement to entitlement and turn away from God compeletly? Or have you forgotten God's servent Job? He was not being punished in any way shape or form. Job's gain from his trials was a more complete understanding of God. The understanding of Job's lot was also considered to be a gain for every generation that came after him. through a breif period of pain came tremoundous gain. Those who's lot is to suffer, do not suffer in vain.

I think you misunderstood my question. There are people in the world that because of their circumstances never get to experience this agape love. It's a given that they are going to hell and it was out of their control. That is unjust.

Quote:How do you know the limits of what has been provided?

[quote]Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God. Evil is a malicious intent to be outside of God's will. How can this be a sin let alone evil? Unless you speak of a righteousness founded apart from the Righteousness of God. a personal sense of Righteousness or a Self Righteousness/morality based on what YOU think is right and wrong. Is it with self righteousness that you judge God?

I meant it is quite evil that God would breathe life into a creation and never give it a chance to make it to heaven.

(July 8, 2012 at 11:14 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I think you misunderstood my question. There are people in the world that because of their circumstances never get to experience this agape love. It's a given that they are going to hell and it was out of their control. That is unjust.

Perhaps you did not understand my answer; "How do you know they are going to Hell?" Hebrews 4:11 seems to say judgement of Hell is reserved for the "Word of God/Jesus" and not to the practioniers of one specific brand of Chriistianity.

Quote:I meant it is quite evil that God would breathe life into a creation and never give it a chance to make it to heaven.

Again How is it you think you are privy to all aspects of God's judgement? The only way to make this assertion is if you judge from a righteousness apart from God's stated righteousness. For, In God's stated righteousness Christ or the Word of God will rightly divide the sum total of our live and weigh it completely against our exposure to the gospel, and then make a decision, or rather anounce the decision we have made in our hearts.

(July 9, 2012 at 12:28 am)Drich Wrote:

(July 8, 2012 at 11:14 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I think you misunderstood my question. There are people in the world that because of their circumstances never get to experience this agape love. It's a given that they are going to hell and it was out of their control. That is unjust.

Perhaps you did not understand my answer; "How do you know they are going to Hell?" Hebrews 4:11 seems to say judgement of Hell is reserved for the "Word of God/Jesus" and not to the practioniers of one specific brand of Chriistianity.

Because Jesus himself said faith in him was needed for salvation.

Drich Wrote:

Quote:I meant it is quite evil that God would breathe life into a creation and never give it a chance to make it to heaven.

Again How is it you think you are privy to all aspects of God's judgement? The only way to make this assertion is if you judge from a righteousness apart from God's stated righteousness. For, In God's stated righteousness Christ or the Word of God will rightly divide the sum total of our live and weigh it completely against our exposure to the gospel, and then make a decision, or rather anounce the decision we have made in our hearts.

Divine Command Theory is flawed. God could say 'slay everything in sight' and you would be forced to do that, independent of your own feelings of whether that's right or not.

Because I'm a cause of evolution I see morals as the extension of the basics that animals depend on to survive. I don't need a deity to tell me murder is wrong. I can derive that for myself. In saying this, I believe I can say it is wrong to create something with the apparent intention of never giving it a chance to live eternally. It's cruel.

(July 9, 2012 at 1:07 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Because Jesus himself said faith in him was needed for salvation.

Which is my point. Just because you have a very specific Brand of Faith, Does not mean other Brands of faith will be refused.

Quote:Divine Command Theory is flawed. God could say 'slay everything in sight' and you would be forced to do that, independent of your own feelings of whether that's right or not.

How is this flawed? Or rather since He did not Command that, but Commanded us to Love our God with all of our being and then Love our neighbor as ourselves, How is this Flawed?

In your allegance to the purity of philosphy, you have over looked the reality of the "Divine command" Given. God did not command us to Kill (Had He I would be hunting all of you down right now) He commanded us to Love God, then Love each other. So with the same effort and zeal I would expend on hunting unbelievers down, I put into my current ministry (if not more)

Quote:Because I'm a cause of evolution I see morals as the extension of the basics that animals depend on to survive. I don't need a deity to tell me murder is wrong. I can derive that for myself.

Actually you can't. You can only do what is right in the eyes of the soceity in which you live. In soceity 'murder' has been justified many many times. Lest your personal sense of righteousness places you above and beyond all of the generations who came before you who swallowed the propaganda given to them.

Quote:In saying this, I believe I can say it is wrong to create something with the apparent intention of never giving it a chance to live eternally. It's cruel.

I guess I will have to say this bluntly, because you still do not get it.

God has not put anyone on the earth who does not have a chance to live eternally. Unfortunatly you are so foolish to think that your understanding of the salvation offered by God/Christ is the only extention of His Grace. Again With Heb 4:11 God/Christ will judge who is worth of eternal life. Not you or those so foolish to think they have a complete understanding of God's Grace. Christ also tells a parable explaining this. (The parable of the day labors)

Christianity as you know it is simply a garantee. God will judge everyone who has Not Heard the Gospel with a set of parmeters not privy to any of us. Which makes eternal life it a throw of the dice, but not impossiable. God will judge who qualifies, and who does not using the same grace offered to all who have heard the gospel. Which still means no man comes to the Father but through Christ. (again Heb 4:11)

I didn't know Dirch was a linguist. You and Hovik should have loads to talk about.

(July 8, 2012 at 3:07 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 8, 2012 at 4:52 am)cato123 Wrote: Christ never made a difference between moral, ceremonial or judicial laws.

(July 8, 2012 at 5:28 am)cato123 Wrote: We don't have to suppose the distinction, Paul and Barnabas made the distinction for us. Are you now going to argue that Christ was only talking about moral Mosaic law in Matthew 5:18?

If you read on through verse 44, you would find Jesus talking about the spirit of the law, as opposed to the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is summed up in Matthew 22:37-40 (as well as Mark 12:30 and Luke 10:27):

Quote:Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The spirit of the law has never changed. In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." In Acts 15, the Christians were realizing that circumcision was part of the letter of the law used by God as a means of showing allegiance. They found that the real lesson to follow was a "circumcision of the heart". The Mosaic laws weren't just a set of hoops to jump through. They were meant to point humans to a higher good.

You are helping to prove my point. The rest of Mark 5 has Jesus talking about specific laws and giving new meaning. At no time does Jesus indicate that the laws that will last until the end of the earth are not to be obeyed. In fact in 27 and 28 he now tries to make adultery a thought crime as well.

The loving god first and neighbors as yourself bit was in reply to the question 'which are the greatest of commandments' and in no way indicated that the rest are to be disobeyed.

(July 9, 2012 at 1:11 pm)cato123 Wrote: You are helping to prove my point. The rest of Mark 5 has Jesus talking about specific laws and giving new meaning. At no time does Jesus indicate that the laws that will last until the end of the earth are not to be obeyed. In fact in 27 and 28 he now tries to make adultery a thought crime as well.

The loving god first and neighbors as yourself bit was in reply to the question 'which are the greatest of commandments' and in no way indicated that the rest are to be disobeyed.

what Christ is doing is making it impossiable to find righteousness through adhearing to the Law. By not only holding on to the existing laws or interpertations of them He has added the 'spirit' or how that law maybe broken in the heart as well. What Chirst did in Mt 5 is put everyone in the same boat. Meaning Christ made it easy for the honest man to identify himself as a constant sinner. That no man at any point in his life can consider himself to be righteous. (even in his greatest works he/man is still a sinner in need of redemption.) Therefore convicting the sinner of his sin. Resulting in an effort or a need to find attonement for said sin. An attonement He/Christ offered on the Cross, which Paul (in His works in the books of Acts and Romans) specifically outlines. that is why there isn't a contradiction anywhere between the works of Paul verses the works of Christ.

These two repersent two different sides of the same coin. Only Christ/Son of God had the authority to complete the Law, and offer the attonement needed to forgive sins, and Paul was shown through his own life experience what attonement meant, when He was forgiven for persecuting the church. Then he took that lesson and applied it to the rest of Christianity, so we may see the contrast and working dynamic of what attonement really means.

There is no justice in Christianity.
I know 2 dudes who are friends with each other. One is christian and another is atheist. They are good friends and both seem to be good people.
I ask christian "Your friend is an atheist where is he gonna go after he dies" he goes "He is gonna be tortured forever"
A good person will be tortured FOREVER for not believing in christian god?
Fucking retarded religion that should be wiped out.