(July 11, 2012 at 1:01 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Our obedience should be out of love.

Why?

Quote:We are like children to Father God,

Your god concept is not my father.

Quote:or the wife to Husband Christ.

Your son of god concept is not my partner or lover. I have no lover. I am asexual.

Quote:If we only paid lip service and refrained from doing anything nasty, what kind of relationship would it be?

There is no relationship.

Quote:God wants our mind and soul, not our bodies.

Why?

Quote:Christ shows love for us first, by paying our debt

Why? And what debt?

Quote:Taking the punishment of death for us.

Death is just the end of the process of life. People are still dying. What is your point?

Quote:The NT shows God's planned response. We are unable to follow the law, but Jesus will follow it for us.

Why?

(July 13, 2012 at 4:58 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 1:01 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Our obedience should be out of love.

Why?

1 John 4:8-12 answers, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

Quote:Your son of god concept is not my partner or lover.

Spouses and parents are metaphors for the depth of love that could exist between us and God. They are to help us understand a relationship high above our comprehension.

(July 13, 2012 at 4:58 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 1:01 pm)Undeceived Wrote: God wants our mind and soul, not our bodies.

Why?

If He only wanted our bodies, we could be robots, or plants, or natural systems. God does not need us to do anything for Him because He is all powerful. He gave us free will for the one thing He cannot force upon us: love. A meaningful relationship. If I in a position of authority say to you, "Do this or else," would you ever love me? No, you will obey only out of fear. There is no lasting satisfaction in fear. Look at any tyrant in history. When they strike fear in their subjects, they become paranoid. They are never content and always want more, but the world can only give them so much. In contrast, the poorest people with the closest families are happier.

(July 13, 2012 at 4:58 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 1:01 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Christ shows love for us first, by paying our debt

Why? And what debt?

I don't know why God chooses to love us (thoughts: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-love.html ). He shouldn't, because we don't deserve it. As Romans 5:7-8 says, "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Our debt is the punishment for our wrongdoing. The penalty for one sin is death. In order for God the judge to remain perfectly just, he could not forgive us this debt without someone taking the sentence for us--an "atoning sacrifice"--a redeemer who did not commit the same crime. Since Jesus is God, He was able to to die once for all humankind. 1 Peter 3:18 explains, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit." And Romans 5:15, "For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

Quote:Death is just the end of the process of life. People are still dying. What is your point?

With Jesus, our death will no longer be eternal. The death we have now is only a means of passing from this life into the next in heaven.

Quote: 1 John 4:8-12 answers, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

(July 13, 2012 at 5:46 pm)Undeceived Wrote: This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

You have not answered my question. Why should we love god and why should this god love us?

You're not making any sense.

Quote:Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

Why to any of this?

Quote:Spouses and parents are metaphors for the depth of love that could exist between us and God. They are to help us understand a relationship high above our comprehension.

What a stupid thing to say. It doesn't add anything to the debate, nor invoke feelings of mysticism or wonder or awe to the discussion, it just makes you look like a prat.

If you can't comprehend it then why even talk about the topics you admit you know relatively nothing about.

Come back later when *you* understand what it is you're talking about.

Quote:God does not need us to do anything for Him because He is all powerful.

Contradiction. You said this thing wants our devotion. Why does it need our love?

Quote:I don't know why God chooses to love us

End of discussion then.

Come back when you do know and not just mindlessly quoting the scriptures in vain.

Quote:With Jesus, our death will no longer be eternal.

I find the fact of eternal oblivion to be wonderful. Its true peace and everlasting freedom from the chains of reality and the burden of identity. Its greater than your silly god concept.

Quote:The death we have now is only a means of passing from this life into the next in heaven.

So according to your theology Jesus is the fucker responsible for eternal condemnation then? Hmm... some saviour.

(July 13, 2012 at 4:18 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Don't be obtuse, numbnuts. Even if you did mean dirt-bag(and we all know you didn't), I said 'insult,' not 'bad word.'

You seem to be so hung up on having the bible as the foundation for your life that I was just wondering where Jesus said it's okay to insult people.

No Jesus, that all me. Stuff like that is the reason i need Jesus.

---

(July 13, 2012 at 4:55 pm)Gambit Wrote: Now, please direct me to the chapter and verse that states this so that I may read it myself.

Genesis 6:6 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5 Then the Lord[b] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Quote:Also, please direct me to the chapter in verse where it specifically states that these babies were any part of God's reason for bringing the flood.

I never said that.

Quote:Oh and by the way, don't call someone obstinate whenever you're the one who believes in a God which has no evidence to support its existence, yet keep banging on as if you have all the answers.

How do you know their isn't any evidence? Have you personally looked for it? i did and I found what i was looking for.

(July 14, 2012 at 1:01 am)Drich Wrote:

(July 13, 2012 at 4:18 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Don't be obtuse, numbnuts. Even if you did mean dirt-bag(and we all know you didn't), I said 'insult,' not 'bad word.'

You seem to be so hung up on having the bible as the foundation for your life that I was just wondering where Jesus said it's okay to insult people.

No Jesus, that all me. Stuff like that is the reason i need Jesus.

---

(July 13, 2012 at 4:55 pm)Gambit Wrote: Now, please direct me to the chapter and verse that states this so that I may read it myself.

Genesis 6:6 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5 Then the Lord[b] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Quote:Also, please direct me to the chapter in verse where it specifically states that these babies were any part of God's reason for bringing the flood.

I never said that.

Quote:Oh and by the way, don't call someone obstinate whenever you're the one who believes in a God which has no evidence to support its existence, yet keep banging on as if you have all the answers.

How do you know their isn't any evidence? Have you personally looked for it? i did and I found what i was looking for.

1. Where is there any mention of demons? Are you referring to the Nephilim?

2. You were defending why God saw fit to drown all the babies during the flood, and that is when you started talking about babies born of demons and human women. Do you often go off on tangents when addressing specific points? Otherwise, why bring it up at all? Even though you wouldn't come right out and say God drowned the babies, we know in the context of the story he did. So what else would you have been talking about? It kind of sticks in your throat, doesn't it? You're displaying signs of something I see often in Christians. You've hit the proverbial brick wall and your moral compass is in conflict with which way to go.

3. I don't know whether there is a God or not, but I'm ok with not knowing rather than having to justify one created by savage people who were only barely starting to educate themselves. Yes, I've looked for evidence of God's existence and found nothing but books, written by men, that gullible people in the 21st century still stubbornly hold onto as truth.

I'm going to start a new thread later when I have the time, if you'll indulge me. There are some other chapters in the bible I'd like to hear your explanation for.

[/u]

(July 14, 2012 at 6:31 am)Gambit Wrote: 1. Where is there any mention of demons? Are you referring to the Nephilim?

בן ben (sons)
אלהים 'elohiym (of God)
Who were the sons of God on the Earth?
Rev 12:
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”


We know this happened before the fall in the Garden because it was on earth that Adam and Eve were tempted and fell from God's grace. It was also on the Earth Job was afflicted by satan and his angles. Not to mention Where Christ was tempted by satan and where Christ and the deciples were casting out Demons.

(Fallen angels are what the church calls demons.)

Quote:2. You were defending why God saw fit to drown all the babies during the flood,

Actually no. i was expressing the need God saw to flood the earth killing everything not on the ark including babies. something one poster wanted to focous on, because in his mind this was the greater sin. thereby some how making god a greater sinner in his eye, therefore making it a moral obligation not to worship the God of the bible.

Quote:and that is when you started talking about babies born of demons and human women.

No I started talking about Men of Great renoun or Demon hybrids, and monkey man/souless man, because the assertion was made that only the innocent were being persecuted by God.

Quote: Do you often go off on tangents when addressing specific points?

Only when there is confusion or i am asked to do so.(such as your challenges or post directed at me in this thread)

Quote:Otherwise, why bring it up at all?

Again it is because of challenges like this one i bring up 'side facts'

Quote: Even though you wouldn't come right out and say God drowned the babies, we know in the context of the story he did

God drown Babies! and a whole host of 'other' beings. i thought this was made clear when I said that some of the babies were the monsters God was targeting to destroy, and others were the prey of those monsters. then I asked what would be better to die as an infant by the hand of God? or to die at the hands of the type of evil beings the earth has not seen since?

Quote: So what else would you have been talking about?

See above

Quote: It kind of sticks in your throat, doesn't it?

Only if you have no idea of what is being discussed.. doesn't it?

Quote:You're displaying signs of something I see often in Christians. You've hit the proverbial brick wall and your moral compass is in conflict with which way to go.

This is why your arguement has failed from the beginning. you are presupposing that i am trying to align God's deeds with popular morality. Ask any one of your peers here. i am not the person you need me to be inorder for you failed arguement to work. For I do not care what popular morality dictates. Look at the pat Robertson thread. I have stated I am NOT a person who says All slavery is Always a Bad thing! Popular morality/your understanding of Morality is not my cornerstone or guiding light. So i do not make any qualms about crossing it.

Quote:3. I don't know whether there is a God or not, but I'm ok with not knowing rather than having to justify one created by savage people who were only barely starting to educate themselves. Yes, I've looked for evidence of God's existence and found nothing but books, written by men, that gullible people in the 21st century still stubbornly hold onto as truth.

If you seek God then why turn to books? Why not seek this evidence from God himself? He has made a promise to all who Ask Seek and Knock for Him. Make an honest effort to take Him at His word and you will get what you are looking for.

Quote:I'm going to start a new thread later when I have the time, if you'll indulge me. There are some other chapters in the bible I'd like to hear your explanation for.

They've probably been discussed already, but if you do not mind a copy and paste to start I'd be happy to follow up any subsequent questions.

Quote: Plus if you take my interpertation of the creation account into consideration...

Why the fuck would anyone take the interpretation of some twat on the internet? You can't even fucking spell or maintain any semblance of grammar, and yet you claim to interpret meaning and nuances in ancient languages. You are no authority.

Drich, you are talking absolute shit, yet again. So, let's continue the conversation along the lines of the babies. Why couldn't God have rescued the innocents as he did the animals, Noah and his family? Surely innocent babies are more righteous than even Noah? You say my argument falls down, however, you are the one who has to redefine morality to make your truth fit. That is the conflict that you face and the only way you can resolve it is by changing the meaning of morality.

Again I will ask, where are there any references in the bible that explicitly state, other than your interpretation of other passages, why God chose to kill all the innocent babies in the flood? You are attempting to speak on behalf of God, which is not your place. Your mental gymnastics and attempts to discredit my observation of your weak arguments are not good enough. You have failed to provide me with what I ask for, time and time again. You continually try to make tenuous links using phrasing like "We know from this" - how do you know anything? The only way you could is if your knowledge was specifically guided by God. Do you make such a claim?

I'm not even going to leave that as a loaded question; I'll expand on it right now. I've been told by many believers of different faiths that I am special and that God has charged me with a specific task - this is all due to some work I do outside of this forum. That includes Christians, Muslims, Hindus and psychics. Now, if I were to believe them, which I don't, I would state quite clearly that I've been sent to destroy your corruption of God's true message to mankind. On what grounds could you possibly challenge me? I think I can already anticipate your answer, but I'll wait.

Throughout human history, the desire for justice (and vengeance/revenge) has often created much more suffering than almost anything else at times. Even if one does not believe in cosmic justice (I frankly don't care about it myself), it does not mean we must settle the score in this life.

Look at what happened with Iraq, a score was settled and hundreds of thousands lost their lives because of it. Sure justice was ultimately carried out against a mass murderer, but were the lives lost because of the conflict worth it? I don't think so.