(July 21, 2012 at 9:20 am)frankiej Wrote: Wow... I don't really know where to start.

First I suggest moving this discussion elsewhere, but it might be a bit late for that.

I do notice that no true Scotsman is strong in this new pup.

Before I discuss anything with this guy, he will have to convince me why I should go for the Bible over other "Holy" books. It is all the same shite to me.

I'm not here to convince you of anything, I'm here to teach you how to make up your own mind.

1 reason to believe? OK

Jeremiah 31:33-34
New International Version (NIV)

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


That destroys the need for any "holy book" and allows each to judge right from wrong according to their conscience. Do you have a problem with that?

(July 21, 2012 at 9:49 am)catfish Wrote:

(July 21, 2012 at 9:20 am)frankiej Wrote: Wow... I don't really know where to start.

First I suggest moving this discussion elsewhere, but it might be a bit late for that.

I do notice that no true Scotsman is strong in this new pup.

Before I discuss anything with this guy, he will have to convince me why I should go for the Bible over other "Holy" books. It is all the same shite to me.

I'm not here to convince you of anything, I'm here to teach you how to make up your own mind.

1 reason to believe? OK

Jeremiah 31:33-34
New International Version (NIV)

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


That destroys the need for any "holy book" and allows each to judge right from wrong according to their conscience. Do you have a problem with that?

But its *from* your holy book. You're only taking that its as advice because its from a book you could happily claw bits out you think to be immoral. And doesn't that grant forgiveness to Joesph Fritzle as long as he converts?
Do you really think thats moral?
Come on for fuck sake, *think*.

(July 21, 2012 at 9:48 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(July 21, 2012 at 9:38 am)catfish Wrote: I came from a religious family too, but even when I was 4 years old, I NEVER fell for any of that bullshit.

Hell's not real, in fact, the Bible predicts the introduction of myths. And the next passage contains a reference to Hades (hell) which we all know is a myth.

Did you at one time believe in "hell"?

Yeah I did and I once believed in a heaven and a God. Until I looked at it properly. Do you know what the best way to control people is? Shock and awe. Make them feel fear, make them feel wonder, make them feel anything to prevent them from questioning and from thinking.
Can you think of anything, anything quite so frightening as burning forever? Or anything quite so wonderful as the promise of eternal paradise? I can't. But you can't question it. No. Can't present evidence for it either. Got to believe as hard as you can or you might not see your loved ones again. I think thats what stops most theists in their tracks you know. They need to believe it isn't the end, that they can resolve everything they left undone in the next life. They fear death with every ounce of themselves if they think for one second that might not be true.
What better means to control someone with than that?
But its not the truth, no-ones ever proved it is. All we've got is a smile and a promise. Thats all. And what if it isn't true? What then? Do you waste your life pursuing it? Under the control of the bastards who would use your loved ones memories against you like they were tools to be used?
Wouldn't it be better to live free as you like? As moral as you like? As happy as you like? To live this life, the only one we can be certain that we have and use the memories of the dead as inspiration for us to live and one we can hand down to our children? Isn't that, in a way a form of eternal life? One we can prove is real?
Make no mistake, religions weapons of choice are shock and awe. If you deny them that, you're free.

I can deny the religionist's shock and awe campaign with their own weapon (the Bible).

My problem is that even the "non-believers" fall for the same lies the religious spew forth.

2 Timothy 4:3-5
New International Version (NIV)

3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

You are here to teach me how to make up my own mind? Arrogant prick.

So a passage from a holy book destroys the need of any holy book. Ah okay... praise Jesus.

Anyone else noticing that apparently this guy doesn't know his Genesis very well? He was caught in a mistake earlier about which book of Genesis something came from, that's forgivable. I have a terrible memory. But then he claimed that the flood myth does not say it was a worldwide flood. I correct him on what I assume will be explained as another "mistake", and he has ignored it thus far.

(July 21, 2012 at 9:58 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: But its *from* your holy book. You're only taking that its as advice because its from a book you could happily claw bits out you think to be immoral. And doesn't that grant forgiveness to Joesph Fritzle as long as he converts?
Do you really think thats moral?
Come on for fuck sake, *think*.

I don't have a "holy book". I myself decide what it moral.

Not sure who Joesph Fritzle is... But I sure wouldn't want anyone to "convert" to something I don't believe in.

Were you implying forgiveness for accepting the "Christian" theology?
If so, which parts? Jesus is God? Jesus paid for his sins? Jesus is the savior?

(July 21, 2012 at 9:59 am)frankiej Wrote: You are here to teach me how to make up my own mind? Arrogant prick.

So a passage from a holy book destroys the need of any holy book. Ah okay... praise Jesus.

*glances arround furtively* Um, I'm sorry sir, but I think they changed it to Jeebus now. *bows out*

</sarcasm>

A religious person not knowing his own religion very well? Sounds like a catholic to me.

(July 21, 2012 at 9:29 am)catfish Wrote: Original sin is not Biblical.

And the flood story doesn't specify a world-wide flood.

Why the fuck should I listen to you? You have already proven yourself as a representative that doesn't read the Bible logically through your own argument.

Original sin is not Biblical? Funny. Without original sin there is no need for Christ. If you don't understand this you are fuck all ignorant of Christianity.

You are also fuck all ignorant of fluid dynamics and want to apply your own special definition to 'highest mountain' if you want to say the flood wasn't global. Palestine isn't in a fishtank. Even if the flood doesn't cover Everest, assuming this is your argument, all the world's seas would have risen to at least have covered the depth equivalent to the highest mountain known by Palestinian goat herders. This would still constitute a global flood by any definition, unless of course you are serioiusly pig dick ignorant.

(July 21, 2012 at 9:58 am)catfish Wrote:

(July 21, 2012 at 9:48 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: Yeah I did and I once believed in a heaven and a God. Until I looked at it properly. Do you know what the best way to control people is? Shock and awe. Make them feel fear, make them feel wonder, make them feel anything to prevent them from questioning and from thinking.
Can you think of anything, anything quite so frightening as burning forever? Or anything quite so wonderful as the promise of eternal paradise? I can't. But you can't question it. No. Can't present evidence for it either. Got to believe as hard as you can or you might not see your loved ones again. I think thats what stops most theists in their tracks you know. They need to believe it isn't the end, that they can resolve everything they left undone in the next life. They fear death with every ounce of themselves if they think for one second that might not be true.
What better means to control someone with than that?
But its not the truth, no-ones ever proved it is. All we've got is a smile and a promise. Thats all. And what if it isn't true? What then? Do you waste your life pursuing it? Under the control of the bastards who would use your loved ones memories against you like they were tools to be used?
Wouldn't it be better to live free as you like? As moral as you like? As happy as you like? To live this life, the only one we can be certain that we have and use the memories of the dead as inspiration for us to live and one we can hand down to our children? Isn't that, in a way a form of eternal life? One we can prove is real?
Make no mistake, religions weapons of choice are shock and awe. If you deny them that, you're free.

I can deny the religionist's shock and awe campaign with their own weapon (the Bible).

My problem is that even the "non-believers" fall for the same lies the religious spew forth.

2 Timothy 4:3-5
New International Version (NIV)

3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

No, you can't. As long as you bind yourself to it they still have control over you. Even now you're only able to make moral justifications as long as they're compatible with certain cherry picked Bible verses.

What is so worthwhile about it that you need to hang onto it? You know what morality is, you don't need religion for that. You never did. When did cherry picking ever reveal the whole truth? If you're choosing through your own moral compass then you're not following the Bible, you're following parts. A version tailored to you? Why? Why bother? You don't need it, you're more moral than that book. I don't know anyone who isn't.

Morality isn't the reason you hang onto that book. Have you asked yourself what the real reason is?