Ok that title's gonna have the pitchforks out in a heartbeat. All I can do is just ask you to hear...uh...read me out. Is that even a thing? To read someone out- anyway.

I've been doing some reading lately on rape involving animals. No, not bestiality, though that's kind of in the same scope, here... Rape is a naturally occurring phenomenon in the animal kingdom, as well as in humanity, as we are all aware. One thing that has been noted is that it definitely occurs in chimps, monkeys, apes...our closest genetic relatives in the animal kingdom, basically, along with bottlenose dolphins and other animals. It also occurs in different species of insects, by the way. So it would seem that...yes, rape is natural.

The possible reasons for rape's prevalence are fairly obvious...though this does not excuse them amongst humans. Basically, it runs that, at least in the animal kingdom and from a biological standpoint, rape is committed in order to prevent genetic extinction; basically, biologically, if you can't get a mate by the usual methods, force is necessary to prevent genetic extinction. Now, this is CLEARLY not the case with humans; for example, I remember reading that a fairly famous porn star was arrested for rape recently. A porn star. The guy clearly was not biologically failing in a capacity to mate.

The problem with we humans is that we are not animals. I've heard lately from a few people whose names and identities I will release at the proper time so as to evoke the maximum amount of pain and scorn they truly deserve that rape is natural in humans and should not be punished so severely, because, after all, it happens in nature, just like homosexuality! Yes, a guy charged with rape is saying that his plight is the same as the plight of homosexuals. I wish I were making this up.

I reiterate, to get back on point; humans are not animals. Misanthropists the world over love to disagree with me on that until I get to this point where I start pointing out the clear differences between animals and humans in a moral context and then if they continue the argument it only shows how utterly fucked their moral compass is and I lose all respect for them after this point. Is it true that animals commit rape? Yes. There's been many accounts witnessed of it happening, with one forcibly mating with the other while the latter struggles to get free and the former utilizes aggressive techniques to keep them pinned...and never from dominant alpha males/females, either, but rather, the runts of the litter, the dregs of the pack, the biological washouts who never have a chance otherwise. Is it true that humans commit rape? Yes. But do we accept it? Consider it normal just because it happens with animals? No. Why?

well, taking away the obvious mental and emotional and physical trauma it entails, it's also a violation of our freedom of choice. We humans are unique in that we are capable of making informed choice, of disseminating information and applying it to varying situations. Animals...not so much. They are instinct, and even our primate relatives, so similar to us, are still not quite capable of making the same kind of informed choices. Simply put; rape is one of the two gravest violations of basic humanity, the second being murder, because both entail someone forcibly over-riding another's freedom of choice to serve one's own pleasures.

So. Rape. Is it natural to humans?

No. No it is not.

You make a presumption natural good, unnatural bad. The male bed bug has an armoured penis and enters the female not through any orifice, but hammers his way in through the stomach it maybe natural, but we can presume it does not lead to a loving relationship.

(August 11, 2012 at 1:04 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: I reiterate, to get back on point; humans are not animals.

That is where you are wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal

Quote:Animals have several characteristics that set them apart from other living things. Animals are eukaryotic and mostly multicellular, which separates them from bacteria and most protists. They are heterotrophic, generally digesting food in an internal chamber, which separates them from plants and algae. They are also distinguished from plants, algae, and fungi by lacking rigid cell walls.All animals are motile, if only at certain life stages. In most animals, embryos pass through a blastula stage, which is a characteristic exclusive to animals.

On other news, rape threads always end badly.

(August 11, 2012 at 1:16 pm)jonb Wrote: You make a presumption natural good, unnatural bad. The male bed bug has an armoured penis and enters the female not through any orifice, but hammers his way in through the stomach it maybe natural, but we can presume it does not lead to a loving relationship.

I argue actually that just because something SEEMS natural just because it happens in the "natural world," doesn't make it so to a human being being, or to our sapient awareness and social ideas on morality.

Rape is an aberration. And we human beings are constantly at war with our instincts and basic primal drives. I am stating that using the claim that because rape happens amongst animals that therefore it's somehow normal is folly and utterly stupid. Even more so when someone starts trying to compare the "plight" of rapists to people who are simply gay.

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(August 11, 2012 at 1:26 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(August 11, 2012 at 1:04 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: I reiterate, to get back on point; humans are not animals.

That is where you are wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal

Quote:Animals have several characteristics that set them apart from other living things. Animals are eukaryotic and mostly multicellular, which separates them from bacteria and most protists. They are heterotrophic, generally digesting food in an internal chamber, which separates them from plants and algae. They are also distinguished from plants, algae, and fungi by lacking rigid cell walls.All animals are motile, if only at certain life stages. In most animals, embryos pass through a blastula stage, which is a characteristic exclusive to animals.

On other news, rape threads always end badly.

Literal-minded, much? I'm going more for the philosophical point. What distinguishes a human being from every other animal? Reason. The ability to reason, or at the very least rationalize. We fit all the definitions of animals, yes, but there's also a "plus" in there as well. We're animals. Technically. In the same way an aircraft carrier could be called a boat.

I see no reason why this thread should end badly. I'm not arguing rape is a good thing; quite the opposite, I'm simply stating a point that rape is not justifiable in humans by the "in nature" argument.

But, humans are animals by every definition of the word. You don't have to be overly literal to come to that conclusion. Hmm

Define natural.

I answered yes.

My understanding of what is 'natural' would suggest that rape is natural.

An overwhelming amount of species in the wild commit rape, including our closest relatives chimpanzees. I refuse your notion that humans are not animals. It's an incredibly arrogant idea IMO, the kind of idea that religious fundies would love to believe so that they can say evolution is false.


Just because we have a moral compass that tells us it's not nice, doesn't make it any less natural than picking your nose.

Is it natural? Probably but why should that matter? Alot of what separates the human race from animals is our impressive intellect granting us sentience and giving us the ability to twist or change the rules of the game for the benefit of all. We are no longer confined by nature in the way we once were.
Thats why we can fly, build complex structures, develop life saving medical procedures, implement morale systems and enforce human rights regardless of race or gender.
That makes our world a happier place to live in.

(August 11, 2012 at 1:34 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Literal-minded, much? I'm going more for the philosophical point. What distinguishes a human being from every other animal? Reason. The ability to reason, or at the very least rationalize. We fit all the definitions of animals, yes, but there's also a "plus" in there as well. We're animals. Technically. In the same way an aircraft carrier could be called a boat.

Oh FFS CoH, there must be an unambiguous baseline for any speech, precise definitions where we can have a coherent talk. Yours is patently ambiguous. If its a philosophical matter, then its the wrong subforum. You should've clarified what you meant with 'animals'.

Quote:I see no reason why this thread should end badly. I'm not arguing rape is a good thing; quite the opposite, I'm simply stating a point that rape is not justifiable in humans by the "in nature" argument.

Mabe, but most threads like this usually end bad. kinda like mentining hitler. I will speak about this only in the presence of my lawyer.

Creed Wrote:and never from dominant alpha males/females, either, but rather, the runts of the litter, the dregs of the pack, the biological washouts who never have a chance otherwise

Where the hell did you get that idea?

(August 11, 2012 at 1:42 pm)Napoleon Wrote: Define natural.

I answered yes.

My understanding of what is 'natural' would suggest that rape is natural.

An overwhelming amount of species in the wild commit rape, including our closest relatives chimpanzees. I refuse your notion that humans are not animals. It's an incredibly arrogant idea IMO.


Just because we have a moral compass that tells us it's not nice, doesn't make it any less natural than picking your nose.

So does the urge come naturally to you? As naturally as picking your nose? I'm pretty sure the urge to pick my nose comes up far more often than the urge to commit a rape, if I pick my nose only once in my life. And I'm pretty sure that the same could be said of the vast majority of human beings.

The reasons given for why rape occurs in the wild, are to prevent genetic extinction, as I stated before. Bottom of the barrel, no hope of getting laid members of the pack. Yet with human beings it's something that seems to come the fuck from nowhere. It's been seen to happen from and across all walks of life. The human mind is more advanced. It makes decisions based on information. It doesn't run off of instinct AS much. I'm not saying it is devoid of instinct, far from it, we still operate from it in many ways, but it has higher thought processes beyond just survival, yes? So, if nature is the argument for why rape occurs, then how come it is occurring in ways where a biological imperative such as the one posited by scientists is not present?? Married men committing rape? Clearly they have a mating source allocated. Men who are attractive, hell, men whose jobs are to fuck attractive women on camera commit rape. Where does that come from?? What "natural" biological impulse says "well you're mating through normal means, BUT FUCK IT, over-ride that shit, and FORCE it on others!" What sense does THAT make, exactly? There's no "natural" explanation for it. A social one, sure, but a natural one? No.