(August 15, 2012 at 12:31 am)Chuck Wrote:

(August 14, 2012 at 10:58 pm)spockrates Wrote: Agreed. I guess the best course of action is to seriously consider as many possibilities as we can, no matter how improbable they first seem to be.

You can't live long enough to seriously contemplate any significant portion of the vast pool of vastly improbable possibilities. Wasting your time on them seems to cause you to lose perspective of just how trivial these possibilities really are next to much weightier probabilities. Life is about constrained optimization, to make the best of the limited time and opportunities you have. Optimization is not achieved by losing perspective and wasting opportunities of the probable for the infinitesimally possible.

True. I suppose, then we should consider those possibilities that seem most promising.

Infrequent and erratic poster, (don't, just don't, with the instability jokes).

With apology's to the guy,s having the logic discussion above, I want to talk about faith love and hope.

Hope. To wish for something with expectation of its fulfilment.

Faith. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Love. A profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person. ( Or persons, I am a bit unsure about the passionate part, as it may give the wrong impression, but I will let it stand.)

Straight out the dictionary, among other definitions.

Forget for a moment that I am a Christian, don't put the shutters down, just let your mind run free for a minute.
Faith, hope and love, these are powers you and others have, powers that can, have and will change the world.

Hope, hopes active, the doctor hopes to find a cure, so he looks for one, Hope drives people to find solutions to look for answers, nothing passive about hope.

Faith, I will call it belief, if you don't mind to remove the religious connotations, is the most powerful force on earth. Let me explain, look around you at the world you inhabit, all the different races, nations, economy's, legal and political systems etc etc. In fact most of the structure of the world, only exists initially within the human mind. It is only by people collectively believing having faith in these things that they exist. That money in your pocket is only worth that coffee and donuts if the guy that has them, believes it is.
That's power, it can move mountains, is doing in china at the moment.

Love, is also a driving force, but it is a governing force as well. (you can remember I am a Christian now if you want)
That guy over there is different from me, not part of my group, different religion, different complexion, different ways to me, all my animal instinct tell me he is a threat, even other people tell me he is a threat. But if I treat that guy as a threat, he will in turn feel threatened and will see me as a threat
Then may actually become the threat I originally feared. If I treat him with a bit of kindness there is a good chance he wont be a threat, most people are not.

Well that's my definition, there is a lot more to the concepts, the three together and love the most important. Also if looking around the world and you don't like what you see, what is only held together by you and others collective belief, then perhaps you and the others can believe something else.

All fine and well, I'm fond of love and hope myself (faith not so much) but they are double edged swords, typical of strong human emotions.

I've got one of the pillars of destruction right here ladies. ;-)

Haha RaphielDrake, that was a good one ;-)

Anyway, hi Hoptoad, nice to have you contributing to my thread. I have to tell you this: I tend to think that with Christianity basically dictating the principles of European and later American culture, dictionary definitions simply reflect what has penetrated deep into the language and the unconsious mind of its users. We have become so used to them that thinking outside the box is difficult. Difficult but not impossible.

I like your examples a lot better than definitions.

(August 20, 2012 at 6:46 am)Hoptoad Wrote: Hope, hopes active, the doctor hopes to find a cure, so he looks for one, Hope drives people to find solutions to look for answers, nothing passive about hope.

Well, I think the doctor WANTS to find a cure and he has the potential to do it so he does attempt it. The one HOPING is the PATIENT who cannot do anything. To me hope always has something passive to it as well as something submissive.

(August 20, 2012 at 6:46 am)Hoptoad Wrote: Faith, I will call it belief, if you don't mind to remove the religious connotations, is the most powerful force on earth. Let me explain, look around you at the world you inhabit, all the different races, nations, economy's, legal and political systems etc etc. In fact most of the structure of the world, only exists initially within the human mind.

Indeed, that is a great example - there once was a song called Zombie by Cranberries and its lyrics went like "it's in your heeead, in your heeeeaaaad". Faith can be very dangerous. For instance, before World War 2 the German civilian population BELIEVED Hitler was going to lead Germany to a victorious future. He himself BELIEVED that too and this is why he lost the war - because at some moment he stopped thinking and was only left with his belief. The very moment you stop thinking and start believing what others tell you, it is most likely you are putting yourself in some kind of danger. Sometimes we cannot analyze and belief is all we have. But in my personal opinion it should be the last resort, not the basis of our daily actions. And it is also a great thing to realize that some of the structure of our interpersonal reality is indeed only based upon collective belief - so the coins in our pockets are only pieces of metal used in an abstract way as one of a trillion ways of exerting social pressure upon individuals. I suppose one cannot avoid it but it is already very liberating and enlightening to realize how it works.

(August 20, 2012 at 6:46 am)Hoptoad Wrote: Love, is also a driving force, but it is a governing force as well. (you can remember I am a Christian now if you want)

Indeed a very Christian thing to say. Religion IS a governing force and using the term love in both power over people and deep personal relations is a remarkable trick. But it all boils down to the origins of Christianity - the slave LOVES his master so he will sacrifice himself. Where there is "love" there is always obsession, repression and some kind of sacrifice on one or both sides. In my humble opinion a lot of interpersonal relations would do better without this - no suicides by men, no beating up of women who "cheated" etc. Just fondness and affection, joy and mutual reinforcement, emotional power and safety but no poisonous stuff.

(August 20, 2012 at 6:46 am)Hoptoad Wrote: That guy over there is different from me, not part of my group, different religion, different complexion, different ways to me, all my animal instinct tell me he is a threat, even other people tell me he is a threat. But if I treat that guy as a threat, he will in turn feel threatened and will see me as a threat
Then may actually become the threat I originally feared. If I treat him with a bit of kindness there is a good chance he wont be a threat, most people are not.

Christianity pretends to be tolerant until it becomes a dominant force itself. In Poland there is a Catholic radio station called Radio Maryja that regularly broadcasts hatred based on nationalism - they tell their listeners and followers to hate Jews, Germans and Russians and the state does not seem to bother to do anything because the radio station is supported by... the Vatican. If you don't believe ;-) me, just go check some news about it on the internet.

(August 20, 2012 at 6:46 am)Hoptoad Wrote: Well that's my definition, there is a lot more to the concepts, the three together and love the most important. Also if looking around the world and you don't like what you see, what is only held together by you and others collective belief, then perhaps you and the others can believe something else.

I do look around the world and I really DO NOT like what I see. I see repression of women, I see people being very passive when they should take action, I see a lot of fake smiling and double thinking, a lot of hypocrisy, too much idleness and far too little thinking. And I believe that Christianity may have something to do with it as it encourages and spreads this exact kind of behaviour with its famous paralyzing triplet.

(August 20, 2012 at 12:50 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I've got one of the pillars of destruction right here ladies. ;-)

You know what you are? You're just as common as fucking muck ,that's what you are.

You lower the tone of the entire forum. Time you acquired some fucking couth Sunshine, like me.


hock:

I am trying to use bb code on this, having previously got my ears burned because of previous posts.Not being very computer literate, in fact being computer illiterate, this may not work. So apologies if this post comes out as gobbledygook.

Also I may vanish without warning, curtailing the conversation, a phone call can put me out of contact for long periods.


Ciel_Rouge

I tend to think that with Christianity basically dictating the principles of European and later American culture, dictionary definitions simply reflect what has penetrated deep into the language and the unconsious mind of its users. We have become so used to them that thinking outside the box is difficult. Difficult but not impossible.

Toad
Personally I think the present problems with perceived Christianity stem from Rome, at the time Christianity was trying to fit in with the old Roman sensibilities an beliefs. Vestal virgins, hell, suppression of women etc.

Let me explain where I am coming from, I am a Christian, that's it, no subdivision, I try to understand and follow my interpretation of the teachings of Christ. All other peoples interpretations, including my own, I measure against the originals. Yes I know, How can I trust that they are original, by going to the earliest sources I can find. I am constantly amazed how the king and emperors of the past allowed these teachings to exist. Didn't they ever read them? I can only assume that either they believed them or feared the wrath of God or relied on the ignorance of the people.



Ciel_Rouge
Well, I think the doctor WANTS to find a cure and he has the potential to do it so he does attempt it. The one HOPING is the PATIENT who cannot do anything. To me hope always has something passive to it as well as something submissive

Toad
If that doctor is not working the patient, hopes another doctor can and looks for one. The problem with despair and fatalism is it blinds someone to the solutions that may be present. Hope gives a positive attitude.

Ciel_Rouge
Faith can be very dangerous. For instance, before World War 2 the German civilian population BELIEVED Hitler was going to lead Germany to a victorious future. He himself BELIEVED that too and this is why he lost the war - because at some moment he stopped thinking and was only left with his belief. The very moment you stop thinking and start believing what others tell you, it is most likely you are putting yourself in some kind of danger. Sometimes we cannot analyze and belief is all we have. But in my personal opinion it should be the last resort, not the basis of our daily actions. And it is also a great thing to realize that some of the structure of our interpersonal reality is indeed only based upon collective belief - so the coins in our pockets are only pieces of metal used in an abstract way as one of a trillion ways of exerting social pressure upon individuals. I suppose one cannot avoid it but it is already very liberating and enlightening to realize how it works.

Toad
Exactly, belief is dangerous that's why you need love as a governor, a control on that belief.
I don't want to preach here, and it is not my intention to. Question every thing, if that is your wish, if it is true it will stand up to your questioning. The example I use is when JC says, you know how to love your family's your children. Expand that love to all mankind, ALL, no exceptions, so I ask myself do my beliefs fit that example, if not then I wont do it. My reading of Christianity is that it is something I impose on myself not something that can be forced on to others.

Ciel_Rouge
Indeed a very Christian thing to say. Religion IS a governing force and using the term love in both power over people and deep personal relations is a remarkable trick. But it all boils down to the origins of Christianity - the slave LOVES his master so he will sacrifice himself. Where there is "love" there is always obsession, repression and some kind of sacrifice on one or both sides. In my humble opinion a lot of interpersonal relations would do better without this - no suicides by men, no beating up of women who "cheated" etc. Just fondness and affection, joy and mutual reinforcement, emotional power and safety but no poisonous stuff.

Toad
Religion is but shouldn't be, as I see it your supposed to control yourself, a church a group of people that agree the rules of that group, if they don't like the rules move to a group they agree with or form there own.
The slave bit people always miss out the bit a few lines along, where the master should behave to the slave as the slave does to the master. Self sacrifice is necessary in any relationship personal or not, no one will put up long with a totally selfish sod. Suicide is despair an the beating pride, humility is a good governor on that. Love is described in that last sentence.



Ciel_Rouge
Christianity pretends to be tolerant until it becomes a dominant force itself. In Poland there is a Catholic radio station called Radio Maryja that regularly broadcasts hatred based on nationalism - they tell their listeners and followers to hate Jews, Germans and Russians and the state does not seem to bother to do anything because the radio station is supported by... the Vatican. If you don't believe ;-) me, just go check some news about it on the internet.

Toad
That's a big problem, not all that come in my name, fig trees and thorn bushes. A Christian should only have one master, one teacher and he is not human. People should use the guidelines.


Ciel_Rouge
I do look around the world and I really DO NOT like what I see. I see repression of women, I see people being very passive when they should take action, I see a lot of fake smiling and double thinking, a lot of hypocrisy, too much idleness and far too little thinking. And I believe that Christianity may have something to do with it as it encourages and spreads this exact kind of behaviour with its famous paralyzing triplet.

Toad
If you don't like what you see and what they are telling you to do, don't play along with them. You don't have to confront them, people of violence enjoy violence, just don't go along with it, be yourself. You have your path through life and your in charge of that life. All the answers are out there for you to find. You may not come to the same conclusions as me, but that's OK it's your path and there is always a way through.

hide
Ciel_Rouge
Anyway, hi Hoptoad, nice to have you contributing to my thread. I have to tell you this: I tend to think that with Christianity basically dictating the principles of European and later American culture, dictionary definitions simply reflect what has penetrated deep into the language and the unconsious mind of its users. We have become so used to them that thinking outside the box is difficult. Difficult but not impossible.

I like your examples a lot better than definitions.


(Today 11:46)Hoptoad Wrote:
Hope, hopes active, the doctor hopes to find a cure, so he looks for one, Hope drives people to find solutions to look for answers, nothing passive about hope.

Well, I think the doctor WANTS to find a cure and he has the potential to do it so he does attempt it. The one HOPING is the PATIENT who cannot do anything. To me hope always has something passive to it as well as something submissive.


(Today 11:46)Hoptoad Wrote:
Faith, I will call it belief, if you don't mind to remove the religious connotations, is the most powerful force on earth. Let me explain, look around you at the world you inhabit, all the different races, nations, economy's, legal and political systems etc etc. In fact most of the structure of the world, only exists initially within the human mind.

Indeed, that is a great example - there once was a song called Zombie by Cranberries and its lyrics went like "it's in your heeead, in your heeeeaaaad". Faith can be very dangerous. For instance, before World War 2 the German civilian population BELIEVED Hitler was going to lead Germany to a victorious future. He himself BELIEVED that too and this is why he lost the war - because at some moment he stopped thinking and was only left with his belief. The very moment you stop thinking and start believing what others tell you, it is most likely you are putting yourself in some kind of danger. Sometimes we cannot analyze and belief is all we have. But in my personal opinion it should be the last resort, not the basis of our daily actions. And it is also a great thing to realize that some of the structure of our interpersonal reality is indeed only based upon collective belief - so the coins in our pockets are only pieces of metal used in an abstract way as one of a trillion ways of exerting social pressure upon individuals. I suppose one cannot avoid it but it is already very liberating and enlightening to realize how it works.


(Today 11:46)Hoptoad Wrote:
Love, is also a driving force, but it is a governing force as well. (you can remember I am a Christian now if you want)

Indeed a very Christian thing to say. Religion IS a governing force and using the term love in both power over people and deep personal relations is a remarkable trick. But it all boils down to the origins of Christianity - the slave LOVES his master so he will sacrifice himself. Where there is "love" there is always obsession, repression and some kind of sacrifice on one or both sides. In my humble opinion a lot of interpersonal relations would do better without this - no suicides by men, no beating up of women who "cheated" etc. Just fondness and affection, joy and mutual reinforcement, emotional power and safety but no poisonous stuff.


(Today 11:46)Hoptoad Wrote:
That guy over there is different from me, not part of my group, different religion, different complexion, different ways to me, all my animal instinct tell me he is a threat, even other people tell me he is a threat. But if I treat that guy as a threat, he will in turn feel threatened and will see me as a threat
Then may actually become the threat I originally feared. If I treat him with a bit of kindness there is a good chance he wont be a threat, most people are not.

Christianity pretends to be tolerant until it becomes a dominant force itself. In Poland there is a Catholic radio station called Radio Maryja that regularly broadcasts hatred based on nationalism - they tell their listeners and followers to hate Jews, Germans and Russians and the state does not seem to bother to do anything because the radio station is supported by... the Vatican. If you don't believe ;-) me, just go check some news about it on the internet.


(Today 11:46)Hoptoad Wrote:
Well that's my definition, there is a lot more to the concepts, the three together and love the most important. Also if looking around the world and you don't like what you see, what is only held together by you and others collective belief, then perhaps you and the others can believe something else.

I do look around the world and I really DO NOT like what I see. I see repression of women, I see people being very passive when they should take action, I see a lot of fake smiling and double thinking, a lot of hypocrisy, too much idleness and far too little thinking. And I believe that Christianity may have something to do with it as it encourages and spreads this exact kind of behaviour with its famous paralyzing triplet. /hide

---

Sorry didn't work, I will have to try harder on this bb thing.

(August 21, 2012 at 6:39 am)Hoptoad Wrote: The example I use is when JC says, you know how to love your family's your children. Expand that love to all mankind, ALL, no exceptions, so I ask myself do my beliefs fit that example, if not then I wont do it. My reading of Christianity is that it is something I impose on myself not something that can be forced on to others.

What about Luke 14:26

“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

Are you cherry picking - surely not !!!


Faith - Gullibility

Too easily deceived or tricked, and too willing to believe everything that other people say - particularly when the collection plate is coming round.

Hope - Wishful thinking

Can be trivial as in "I hope the weather is nice when I have my barbecue"
or non-trivial as in "I hope I live forever" . ("of course you will live forever" says the priest - "just do as I say and by the way here's the collection plate")

Love - Sex and procreation

The true motivation behind almost all human activity. We spend much of our youth searching for the first, and much of our adult live protecting the second.

Regards

Grimesy

(August 21, 2012 at 2:37 am)padraic Wrote:

(August 20, 2012 at 12:50 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I've got one of the pillars of destruction right here ladies. ;-)

You know what you are? You're just as common as fucking muck ,that's what you are.

You lower the tone of the entire forum. Time you acquired some fucking couth Sunshine, like me.


hock:

Lies.

(August 21, 2012 at 7:16 am)pgrimes15 Wrote:

(August 21, 2012 at 6:39 am)Hoptoad Wrote: The example I use is when JC says, you know how to love your family's your children. Expand that love to all mankind, ALL, no exceptions, so I ask myself do my beliefs fit that example, if not then I wont do it. My reading of Christianity is that it is something I impose on myself not something that can be forced on to others.

What about Luke 14:26

“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

Are you cherry picking - surely not !!!


Faith - Gullibility

Too easily deceived or tricked, and too willing to believe everything that other people say - particularly when the collection plate is coming round.

Hope - Wishful thinking

Can be trivial as in "I hope the weather is nice when I have my barbecue"
or non-trivial as in "I hope I live forever" . ("of course you will live forever" says the priest - "just do as I say and by the way here's the collection plate")

Love - Sex and procreation

The true motivation behind almost all human activity. We spend much of our youth searching for the first, and much of our adult live protecting the second.

Regards

Grimesy

Toad
Thanks for that one. Now here's an interesting thing, you might like this. That is not the only version of that saying, in the gospel of Thomas it has another line.

Forgive me if you all ready know this, the gospel of Thomas was written about by the early Christians, not included in the bible and includes sayings of Jesus not included in the bible, it was lost during the period of orthodoxy in Rome.
Besides some fragments found elsewhere, the only existing copy was found at Nag Hammiadi with some other documents and some Gnostic writings, meaning that copy has never been in the hands of the Roman authority's. I have got to admit I find some of it baffling. Still here is portion 101.

101. "Whoever does not hate [father] and mother as I do cannot be my [disciple], and whoever does [not] love [father and] mother as I do cannot be my [disciple]. For my mother [...], but my true [mother] gave me life."

Not totally complete but at the moment all we got.

That's me off for a bit, I will pop in when I can.