(September 4, 2012 at 9:21 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Christian morality is summed up in Jesus' words: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and love your neighbor as yourself." Love is good. Selfishness is evil. Jesus upheld the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law. The letter of the law is the actions Moses and other prophets commanded--they change. The spirit of the law is the mindset behind these commands. It has never changed.

You are speaking in generalities. When one does that and does not go to the specifics, one is able to cover up a multitude of sins. The fact is what is moral has changed over time and I'm prepared to enter into a formal debate with any Christian who is audacious enough to say nay. Do we have a place for formal debates in Atheist Forums?

(September 4, 2012 at 8:48 am)greneknight Wrote: There's something that non-Christians don't know about Christians - we really don't believe in objective morality. William Lane Craig tells a huge lie when he says there's such a thing as objective morality that's immutable. That's not the teaching of Christianity as evidenced by the history of the church. Ravi Zacharias is another liar. He always gives talks in universities and he would ask an atheist student if there was such a thing as a moral law. Afraid that Ravi would accuse atheists of being immoral if he replied in the negative, the student says there is. Ravi then asks "If there is a moral law, who is the moral law giver?" Of course the poor student is no longer able to answer the question because the mike has been passed on to the next questioner.

Both Craig and Ravi are liars. That's not what Christians really believe in. We believe that morality is very much the product of culture and it varies from place to place and from time to time. This is backed up by the teachings of the church and even the Bible. There is ample evidence in the Bible that what's wrong or right at one time need not be wrong or right today.

I was on the verge of engaging in a formal debate with a Christian in Christian Forums before I realized what a rotten place that is. It's very hard to argue there. You say the wrong thing and you get banned. Any Christian who says there is objective morality that is unchanging over time is dishonest. He should know that's not what our religion teaches. And I'll be happy to cross swords with him in a formal debate.

I'd love to debate you on this but I dont debate Christians about Christian doctrine on atheist fora.

BTW - an opinion is not a lie. Mr Craig is entitled to his opinions about the moral argument. And he expresses those opinions in formal debates with well-credentialled intellectual opponents who hold different opinions and both sides manage to avoid calling one another LIAR.

(September 4, 2012 at 9:48 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I'd love to debate you on this but I dont debate Christians about Christian doctrine on atheist fora.

BTW - an opinion is not a lie. Mr Craig is entitled to his opinions about the moral argument. And he expresses those opinions in formal debates with well-credentialled intellectual opponents who hold different opinions and both sides manage to avoid calling one another LIAR.

Hi,

Perhaps you don't consider me a Christian? You might very well consider me an atheist and if that is so, we can have a debate. I don't believe in a God being or in anything supernatural. I don't believe in the existence of a personal God, gods, goddesses, angels, demons, Satan, fairies, leprechauns, pixies and elves.

I believe the Bible is a collection of ancient books that contain falsehoods, lies, untruths of all kinds. I think it's foolish and dangerous to believe in the Bible literally as fundies do.

If these credentials make you think I'm not a Christian, you might want to debate with me? Then, we can have the BATTLE OF THE CENTURY BETWEEN SIR GRENEKNIGHT OF THE ORDER OF THE ROUND TABLE AND SIR LION.

How about that?

Xtians don't believe there's objective morality? Well, I should hope not - what a silly thing to believe in!

(September 4, 2012 at 9:56 pm)greneknight Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 9:48 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I'd love to debate you on this but I dont debate Christians about Christian doctrine on atheist fora.

BTW - an opinion is not a lie. Mr Craig is entitled to his opinions about the moral argument. And he expresses those opinions in formal debates with well-credentialled intellectual opponents who hold different opinions and both sides manage to avoid calling one another LIAR.

Hi,

Perhaps you don't consider me a Christian?...

I take people at their word. Bone fides.

...you know...not calling them LIARS.

(September 4, 2012 at 10:14 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 9:56 pm)greneknight Wrote: Hi,

Perhaps you don't consider me a Christian?...

I take people at their word. Bone fides.

...you know...not calling them LIARS.

Hey, I think you're afraid to debate with me and are trying to flee. OK, assume I'm an atheist then and let's have a formal debate. Since I don't believe in a personal God and my idea of a God is that he's a mere metaphor for goodness, it's ok to term me an atheist. Let's have a debate. Or have you any other excuses?

(September 4, 2012 at 8:48 am)greneknight Wrote: There's something that non-Christians don't know about Christians - we really don't believe in objective morality. William Lane Craig tells a huge lie when he says there's such a thing as objective morality that's immutable. That's not the teaching of Christianity as evidenced by the history of the church. Ravi Zacharias is another liar. He always gives talks in universities and he would ask an atheist student if there was such a thing as a moral law. Afraid that Ravi would accuse atheists of being immoral if he replied in the negative, the student says there is. Ravi then asks "If there is a moral law, who is the moral law giver?" Of course the poor student is no longer able to answer the question because the mike has been passed on to the next questioner.

Both Craig and Ravi are liars. That's not what Christians really believe in. We believe that morality is very much the product of culture and it varies from place to place and from time to time. This is backed up by the teachings of the church and even the Bible. There is ample evidence in the Bible that what's wrong or right at one time need not be wrong or right today.

I was on the verge of engaging in a formal debate with a Christian in Christian Forums before I realized what a rotten place that is. It's very hard to argue there. You say the wrong thing and you get banned. Any Christian who says there is objective morality that is unchanging over time is dishonest. He should know that's not what our religion teaches. And I'll be happy to cross swords with him in a formal debate.

You are not a Christian, the scriptures prove that and since you want to use scripture to debate objective morality, you must also use scriptures to prove you are a Christian. You will never be able to do it, I assure you. Scriptures teach morality's objective, just because you do not want to adhere to the morality the scriptures lay out does not make them subjective. Morality has never nor will it ever depend on what you want or believe, objective morality depends only on God. Christ said that the moral laws of scripture would never change, if you were a Christian you would know this and believe this. You've come to an atheist site and claim you are a Christian and then represent their beliefs, you must be a real loon. It's people like you that give Christianity problems, the atheist on this site are honest about their position, you are trying to be as deceptive as Satan and you fail at even that.

(September 4, 2012 at 10:18 pm)greneknight Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 10:14 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I take people at their word. Bone fides.

...you know...not calling them LIARS.

Hey, I think you're afraid to debate with me and are trying to flee. OK, assume I'm an atheist then and let's have a formal debate. Since I don't believe in a personal God and my idea of a God is that he's a mere metaphor for goodness, it's ok to term me an atheist. Let's have a debate. Or have you any other excuses?

I've already given my excuse.
Declining a debate invitation always leaves one open to the accusation of cowardice.
(Oh well. Yawn. I've been called worse than that)

Let me know if you ever become an atheist.

(September 4, 2012 at 9:38 pm)greneknight Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 9:21 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Christian morality is summed up in Jesus' words: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and love your neighbor as yourself." Love is good. Selfishness is evil. Jesus upheld the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law. The letter of the law is the actions Moses and other prophets commanded--they change. The spirit of the law is the mindset behind these commands. It has never changed.

You are speaking in generalities. When one does that and does not go to the specifics, one is able to cover up a multitude of sins. The fact is what is moral has changed over time and I'm prepared to enter into a formal debate with any Christian who is audacious enough to say nay. Do we have a place for formal debates in Atheist Forums?

How might I be more specific? Every action done out of love is morally upright. Every action done out of hate is 'wrong'. When we love, we are content. When we hate, our conscience eats us from the inside out. Cultural opinions on morality may change, but I think you'll find a 15th dynasty Egyptian and a modern American have very similar views on right and wrong. For example, the Egyptian culture may proclaim slavery okay so that it can practice slavery. Americans believe it wrong. But ask that Egyptian if it is morally okay to enslave him personally and you'll get a different response--one in line with the American's. With this strategy in mind, which morals do you feel have changed?

(September 4, 2012 at 10:42 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 8:48 am)greneknight Wrote: There's something that non-Christians don't know about Christians - we really don't believe in objective morality. William Lane Craig tells a huge lie when he says there's such a thing as objective morality that's immutable. That's not the teaching of Christianity as evidenced by the history of the church. Ravi Zacharias is another liar. He always gives talks in universities and he would ask an atheist student if there was such a thing as a moral law. Afraid that Ravi would accuse atheists of being immoral if he replied in the negative, the student says there is. Ravi then asks "If there is a moral law, who is the moral law giver?" Of course the poor student is no longer able to answer the question because the mike has been passed on to the next questioner.

Both Craig and Ravi are liars. That's not what Christians really believe in. We believe that morality is very much the product of culture and it varies from place to place and from time to time. This is backed up by the teachings of the church and even the Bible. There is ample evidence in the Bible that what's wrong or right at one time need not be wrong or right today.

I was on the verge of engaging in a formal debate with a Christian in Christian Forums before I realized what a rotten place that is. It's very hard to argue there. You say the wrong thing and you get banned. Any Christian who says there is objective morality that is unchanging over time is dishonest. He should know that's not what our religion teaches. And I'll be happy to cross swords with him in a formal debate.

You are not a Christian....

Oh my LORD!
You bite your tongue Godschild.
/me nearly faints.
As I live and breathe !!!!
I can't believe you doubt our fine upstanding brother is a Christian after all the fine testimony he has shared with the atheists here
about God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.