(September 16, 2009 at 3:48 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote:

(September 16, 2009 at 2:37 pm)Saerules Wrote:

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Ah, that truly would be heartless... i agree with you upon that point.

Human interference CAUSED the fetus in the first place. Otherwise: the eggs would have just fallen away without impregnation. It is good that you feel bad about the loss of life... but it is only a good thing if you are able to see the same of other creatures. I would not go so far as to weep or pray for those I eat... but I am at least sobered by the lives I have devoured so that I can continue to live. To not be... and hold only value upon human life: that is hypocrisy,

Another little baby child is born... in the ghetto. Many of the people at the poverty level are miserable, and are better off: not at poverty level! Imagine the cost of a child upon those people fighting for their very survival each day? It costs a fair amount of money just to keep a child alive... let alone raise it properly. Where are you getting that money from if you are living at poverty level, working several minimum wage jobs? Pay for the extra food, clothing, possibly bedding, utility costs, etc, and hopefully entertainment of that child: and you are left with less money by the end of the day... sometimes you are left in debt by the end of the month because of renting decent shelter you cannot pay for.

I pity anyone who has to live such a life... child or otherwise. I would not kill them... but I do think many of them would suffer less if they were dead. In a choice between a frenzied, unwinnable fight for survival... and a peaceful oblivion: I would choose my oblivion. But that level of existence should not even exist in the first place... except among those who refuse to work entirely.

The decision to have a child at that level of existence... that is stupid.

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Not the point. The point is after the child is conceived you are killing what would potentially be a baby. Forgive me for not being entirely comfortable with that. Also just as an FYI, I'm pescatarian, I don't eat meat, only fish. The discussion of what we eat, whether it's immoral or not, is a different conversation entirely.

(September 16, 2009 at 3:20 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I'm happy without money. It's fucking nice to have but I don't need much, only the essentials. I'm not a materialistic person. And a computer or two is a nice bonus of course

Indeed, as someone who has been at the poverty level, lived with parents in debt (often because my own health problems and me not having insurance) and living with the threat of foreclosure, I can say I'm still very happy to be alive. You can't judge someone's life just because they're poor. Many people have good lives and have never had much at all. So as I said before, it's a broad statement to make that does not do justice to the complexity of social positions.

My mother could have made a decision based on money to abort my 11 year old sister. We were in a very bad financial situation when my mother accidentally got pregnant. But my mother loved the child as soon as she knew she was pregnant and it wasn't a question in her mind that she would have her. A lot of people asked her about abortion since she was 42 at the time and our family situation wasn't the best. But she had Liz and I couldn't imagine life without her. We may not still have the best financial situation, but we still have our house, and we have Liz. If the decision was so simple as figuring how much money we have, Liz might not be here.

At the same time my older sister has had two abortions because she got pregnant at a really bad time in her life, and her reasons for abortion were good and I supported her. I couldn't imagine her with children, she wouldn't be as successful as she is now if she had children. Nevertheless, the decision is still painful to her and it makes me sad to think of the nieces or nephews that I'll never know because they were never born.

The simple fact is that abortion is a deeply personal decision, which is the only reason I am pro-choice. There is no easy answer for what is the right thing to do in any given situation, and if you think you have the answer, then you don't understand how complex and heartbreaking the experience is for people who go through it.

The best thing for people is to focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies.

Fish ARE meat! >_< Why is a baby worth so much to you?

Then you do not fall into "The majority people living at poverty level" category. The people *I* consider as living in poverty are those who cannot, or can hardly, afford proper meals and shelter...

Life almost always wants to live and keep living... but that is 'not the point'. If you cannot get out of the situation you were in Eilon... then the odds are highly in favor of you perishing. You say you needed health care... and yet you probably didn't get it until after you got out of poverty? That is a problem... a problem that should not ever have to occur.

When in poverty, a child is a very expensive thing to care for. If your parents had not chosen to have you and your other siblings when they did: they probably could have had a secure home for you to live in. And then they could have you without fearing survival every day. They could have brought up their children in a MUCH better situation... and yet they chose selfishly to have you when they did.

If your mother had not had Liz, then the resources allocated for her could have been used to better home life for the lot of you. Your sister's decision was intelligent and her success as a result is why one should avoid having children young.

It is entirely the mother's choice... but she should consider every single option before she has or aborts the child. She should especially consider her economical status in this matter, and realize that having children is simply bad for one's budget flexibility, and that children cost a great deal of money to raise.

I agree with your last statement entirely

Just to note: Elionnwy's mother couldn't have had her (and her siblings) any other time Sae, if she'd had her another time it wouldn't be her, would it?

EvF

(September 16, 2009 at 4:26 pm)Saerules Wrote: Fish ARE meat! >_< Why is a baby worth so much to you?

Why is a baby worth so little to you?

Why is it that when people don't want them they are just a fetus, but when they do they are their baby? In fact people have been convicted of murder for unborn babies, most notably Scott Peterson for murdering his wife and unborn son. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laci_Peterson

Quote:Then you do not fall into "The majority people living at poverty level" category. The people *I* consider as living in poverty are those who cannot, or can hardly, afford proper meals and shelter...

Life almost always wants to live and keep living... but that is 'not the point'. If you cannot get out of the situation you were in Eilon... then the odds are highly in favor of you perishing. You say you needed health care... and yet you probably didn't get it until after you got out of poverty? That is a problem... a problem that should not ever have to occur.

When in poverty, a child is a very expensive thing to care for. If your parents had not chosen to have you and your other siblings when they did: they probably could have had a secure home for you to live in. And then they could have you without fearing survival every day. They could have brought up their children in a MUCH better situation... and yet they chose selfishly to have you when they did.

If your mother had not had Liz, then the resources allocated for her could have been used to better home life for the lot of you. Your sister's decision was intelligent and her success as a result is why one should avoid having children young.

It is entirely the mother's choice... but she should consider every single option before she has or aborts the child. She should especially consider her economical status in this matter, and realize that having children is simply bad for one's budget flexibility, and that children cost a great deal of money to raise.

I agree with your last statement entirely

My parents did not selfishly chose to have me when they did. They planned for me and my older sister, money problems came much later in life, so I resent your statement, especially when you made it without knowing facts. And even if it were true, even if I wasn't plan, then fuck you. How dare you tell me my parents are selfish for loving and wanting me. Do you value life so little that such a momentous decision is easily relegated to how well off you are?

You seem to think abortion is so easy. Don't have the money? Well let's get rid of it! Every woman who have had abortions for that very reason can tell you decision is NOT that easy and it stays with them the rest of their life. My sister still feels troubled and guilty. Maybe she made the right decision, who knows. But either way it was hard, and not so easy to come to just because of money. Every situation is complex, so I would suggest you refrain from judging when you don't know all the facts.

I love my sister and I am damn glad to have her in my life, I wouldn't want it any other way. She's a joy in my life and no amount of money problems would ever make me wish my mother aborted her.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=15...1134961536

Quote:If your parents had not chosen to have you and your other siblings when they did: they probably could have had a secure home for you to live in. And then they could have you without fearing survival every day

Like EvF said, if they done it sooner or later Eilonnwy would not be here. 10mins differance is all that is needed to determine weather you are born or someone else is. So doing it later would mean Eilonnwy would not be here with us. Even seconds can determin weather you are born or someone else is in your place.

What other kind of 'poor' did you think i meant? When I say starving... i bloody mean starving. You are not so poor that you cannot afford the essentials. That is where I draw the grey swath of poverty: when you are poor to the point that you cannot afford the essentials yourself! If you have a baby in this instance: you are ruining both your life, and likely the baby's life.

And this happens in not only third world countries... but also in places like America.

You obviously don't only mean dirt poor when you say my parents are selfish for having me and then in another breath say they're not the poverty level you're talking about. Don't contradict yourself and refrain from insulting people and practically saying they shouldn't exist in the process. You almost got a warning from that and not by me.

There are different levels of poverty, not just one. Furthermore, when you're talking about poverty levels so low people can barely eat, then you're talking about an entirely different problem. Most people at that level don't even have access to abortions, and then of course you have various churches telling them condoms are evil.

(September 16, 2009 at 5:23 pm)Saerules Wrote: That is where I draw the grey swath of poverty: when you are poor to the point that you cannot afford the essentials yourself! If you have a baby in this instance: you are ruining both your life, and likely the baby's life.

If you're that poor instinct rather than intellect determine your choices. Again I wouldn't ever condemn a person so down on their luck. It'd surely be inhumane to do so.

It could be an extreme sad situation but I wouldn't ever in my wildest dream think sterilization was an option, for example. The fight for life is natural. We evolved because of this.

(September 16, 2009 at 4:11 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 16, 2009 at 2:37 pm)Saerules Wrote:

(September 16, 2009 at 3:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Heartless yes. Who is anyone to judge that just because you aren't rich you can't have children? That just disgusts me. Wealthy people abandon their children to childcare so their kids are raised loveless. Quality of life isn't about money.

And such people shouldn't be having children for other reasons. If you would have a child, only to abandon them: you should not have had that child in the first place.

And who the hell told you that one's quality of life isn't about money? Money is one of the most important factors in determining life quality: Can you pay for heating, food you like, a decent house, a decent car, media and entertainment, etc.? It is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT factor in determining quality of life. Resources and comforts are both purchased by money, and without money: one must live a very simple and often terrible life.

Take away every person's money, and see how far their quality of life deteriorates: Back into the stone age.

More money than you need deteriorates your quality of life too. People move to cities with poorer community, or separate themselves ..also destructive. Like Ace says money serves a purpose: to replace bartering.

How does simple equate to terrible?? A simple life can be the happiest. To have mastery over the drive for wealth beyond your needs is healthy.

A hard life can be happy, an easy life can be destructive.

I find the loss of my modern conveniences terrible It is true that a simple life can be happy (look at dogs)... but happiness is not the only attribute to consider in the quality of one's life. Accomplishment, knowledge, convenience, sociality, impact, entertainment... these are all parts of one's quality of life... and this list is not all inclusive.

A stone age lifestyle often lacks greater knowledge (and as a result, many forms of entertainment), is much narrower socially, has little impact upon the world, and can accomplish much less. Quite simply, this lifestyle impedes the advance of the sciences, medicines, communication, and logical understanding of the universe.

There are reasons that we now have modern culture instead: we suffer less from diseases and plagues, we no longer tie our very existence to the mercy of unpredictable nature, we have many things that make our life more convenient, we much less often run into the wall of being unable to communicate with others, we work many times more efficiently, we are able to understand better how we got here, our purpose is now rarely to just survive and have children, women and their babies die less often in childbirth, people die less often from diseases, a drought no longer wipes out our ability to survive due to global trading, we are able to enjoy entertainment that evaded even the imagination of our long dead ancestors, etc.

A hard life can be happy... but lacks a great deal of substance, therefore its quality is nowhere near that of the easy life. The difference is that between a decent 2 page essay, and a good thousand page novel.

Sae,

Poverty and being poor generally means very low on money as well as no money. So I didn't assume you meant totally without money because the term "poor" is broader than that. "Poor" can be that you can't afford anything but the essentials. It isn't excluded to not being able to afford the essentials at all. One could say poor was working class, meaning not middle or above. Anywhere from that down to completely skint and with no income.

In my experience, when I was 'better off' on the outside, I was worse off on the inside - because my focus was all external and I was quite naive really. Overindulgence can be very bad, and having a hard time can make you stronger. It sure has me.

There are some bad things that have happened in my life that, looking back I realize how much stronger a person they've made me. It's certainly not all black or white on this matter.

EvF

(September 16, 2009 at 4:41 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Just to note: Elionnwy's mother couldn't have had her (and her siblings) any other time Sae, if she'd had her another time it wouldn't be her, would it?

EvF

Then another person would have been born instead. A person is a person... no matter what their attributes. We are all different, so if I had not been born: someone else would have been. Have *I* any more of a right to have been born than them? Of course not. But I was born, and not them. Therefore my life has worth... their life is hypothetical.

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(September 16, 2009 at 5:56 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Sae,

Poverty and being poor generally means very low on money as well as no money. So I didn't assume you meant totally without money because the term "poor" is broader than that. "Poor" can be that you can't afford anything but the essentials. It isn't excluded to not being able to afford the essentials at all. One could say poor was working class, meaning not middle or above. Anywhere from that down to completely skint and with no income.

EvF

I was using the wrong word then I was using those terms to describe the point of income between barely affording the essentials and being unable to afford them. I drew a grey area between those two points, and another grey area between barely able to afford them and afford them with a little money to spare (I.E, where middle class starts).

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(September 16, 2009 at 4:59 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote:

(September 16, 2009 at 4:26 pm)Saerules Wrote: Fish ARE meat! >_< Why is a baby worth so much to you?

Why is a baby worth so little to you?

Why is it that when people don't want them they are just a fetus, but when they do they are their baby? In fact people have been convicted of murder for unborn babies, most notably Scott Peterson for murdering his wife and unborn son. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laci_Peterson

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Quote:Then you do not fall into "The majority people living at poverty level" category. The people *I* consider as living in poverty are those who cannot, or can hardly, afford proper meals and shelter...

Life almost always wants to live and keep living... but that is 'not the point'. If you cannot get out of the situation you were in Eilon... then the odds are highly in favor of you perishing. You say you needed health care... and yet you probably didn't get it until after you got out of poverty? That is a problem... a problem that should not ever have to occur.

When in poverty, a child is a very expensive thing to care for. If your parents had not chosen to have you and your other siblings when they did: they probably could have had a secure home for you to live in. And then they could have you without fearing survival every day. They could have brought up their children in a MUCH better situation... and yet they chose selfishly to have you when they did.

If your mother had not had Liz, then the resources allocated for her could have been used to better home life for the lot of you. Your sister's decision was intelligent and her success as a result is why one should avoid having children young.

It is entirely the mother's choice... but she should consider every single option before she has or aborts the child. She should especially consider her economical status in this matter, and realize that having children is simply bad for one's budget flexibility, and that children cost a great deal of money to raise.

I agree with your last statement entirely

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My parents did not selfishly chose to have me when they did. They planned for me and my older sister, money problems came much later in life, so I resent your statement, especially when you made it without knowing facts. And even if it were true, even if I wasn't plan, then fuck you. How dare you tell me my parents are selfish for loving and wanting me. Do you value life so little that such a momentous decision is easily relegated to how well off you are?

You seem to think abortion is so easy. Don't have the money? Well let's get rid of it! Every woman who have had abortions for that very reason can tell you decision is NOT that easy and it stays with them the rest of their life. My sister still feels troubled and guilty. Maybe she made the right decision, who knows. But either way it was hard, and not so easy to come to just because of money. Every situation is complex, so I would suggest you refrain from judging when you don't know all the facts.

I love my sister and I am damn glad to have her in my life, I wouldn't want it any other way. She's a joy in my life and no amount of money problems would ever make me wish my mother aborted her.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=15...1134961536

You've the burden of proof in this matter. Everything is valueless until it is considered by something to have value. Again: why is a baby so valuable to you? That man murdered a living person, the unborn baby concerns me not in this instance. I think of fetus and baby as interchangeable, and use both. Life begins at birth... until then it is just the matter that makes up life. 9 months pregnant? Still abortable. Recommended time to abort? Not at all... but still possible without murder. Why the hell would a person nourish something they were going to abort for 9 months though? That is a huge waste...

With this new knowledge of the facts Eilon: They didn't plan very well... they didn't have enough money to protect their status from the unforeseen... which is why i say that one must be absolutly secure before they have children. It is true that I value life very little... and if my own life's value is so low: why should I value the life of a stranger any more?

The only lives I hold more value than my own upon: are worthy of that value. And a great number of people have earned that worth in my eyes. I value some life, but don't value other life. Life's value is only the value of its attributes and its choice. But I value attributes as but a tenth of how I value choices... Those choices determine for me a person's worth.

Abortion is especially easy for me: That life has only possibly good/bad attributes supporting its existence... it has made no choices. However, a baby is worth that nine months of time investment by the mother... and has the value of a person's choice placed upon it. That baby is worth something... but those who have been aborted are worth next to nothing.

That you love your sister places value upon her. I admit that I could never love someone I have not heard of, or met... A baby would have to be born before I could love it.