So, the Ask, Seek, Knock thread was getting seriously derailed and Drich asked me to start a new thread, so here I am. Some biblical prophecies predict that something will happen, and others that it will not. Oftentimes, we are told that the reason the prophecy has not been fulfilled is that he haven't waited long enough. The rapture is probably the most well known prophecy of this kind. However, when a prophecy says that something will not happen, the prophecy is putting itself in hot water. Just as you can wait millenia for a prophecy to be fulfilled, you can do the same in reverse, waiting for a negative prophecy to be disproven. Then there a prophecies that things will happen at a certain time and they do not. This thread is not reserved exclusively for 'prophecies', per se, but for any supposedly divine claim that has been refuted.
For example:

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Joshua 3:7-10 And the Lord said to Joshua, “Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses. 8 Tell the priests who carry the ark of the covenant: ‘When you reach the edge of the Jordan’s waters, go and stand in the river.’”

9 Joshua said to the Israelites, “Come here and listen to the words of the Lord your God. 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.

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Joshua 15:63 Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah.

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Here, god states "Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses." In other words, god is with him. Then god says "This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites." Therefore, if god is with them, these peoples will be driven out. But then it goes on to say "Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah." There are only three possibilites: god lied to him and was not with him; god was incapable of stopping the Jebusites; or this is a biblical contradiction.

Well, we can rule out god's failure as he is omnipotent and could not possibly fail at anything. As for god's lying:

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Hebrews 6:18 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

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and

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Numbers 23:19-20 19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
20 I have received a command to bless;
he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

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So god lying is out of the question. Therefore, the only remaining choice is that this is a contradiction.

(October 18, 2012 at 12:16 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So god lying is out of the question. Therefore, the only remaining choice is that this is a contradiction.

Not at all. Iron chariots are just like Kryptonite to the Lord. It's the one weakness our Superman has.

(October 18, 2012 at 12:42 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote:

(October 18, 2012 at 12:16 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So god lying is out of the question. Therefore, the only remaining choice is that this is a contradiction.

Not at all. Iron chariots are just like Kryptonite to the Lord. It's the one weakness our Superman has.

Legos? Wow...
I guess god not being omnipotent explains why he doesn't have the ability to exist. (And I'm not blind, I know you're a sock poe of Tiberius...though I can't remember where I read you were Tiberius)

http://truth-saves.com/failed-prophecies/

Of course you realize that all you are doing is giving Drippy a chance to trot out more apologetic horseshit which will have to be shoved back up his ass, turd by turd.

(October 18, 2012 at 12:16 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

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Joshua 3:7-10 And the Lord said to Joshua, “Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses. 8 Tell the priests who carry the ark of the covenant: ‘When you reach the edge of the Jordan’s waters, go and stand in the river.’”

9 Joshua said to the Israelites, “Come here and listen to the words of the Lord your God. 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.

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Joshua 15:63 Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah.

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The Jebusites, who are identical with the Hittites, derived their name from the city of Jebus, the ancient Jerusalem, which they inhabited. Within their territory lay the cave of Machpelah, which Abraham wished to buy. But they said to him: "We know that God will give this country to your descendants. Now, if you will make a covenant with us that Israel will not take the city of Jebus against the will of its inhabitants, we will cede to you the cave and will give you a bill of sale." Abraham, who was very anxious to obtain this holy burial-place, thereupon made a covenant with the Jebusites, who engraved its contents on bronze. When the people of Israel came into the promised land they could not conquer Jebus (comp. Judges i. 21) because the bronze figures, with Abraham's covenant engraved thereon, were standing in the center of the city.

The same was the case later with King David, to whom the Jebusites said: "You can not enter the city of Jebus until you have destroyed the bronze figures on which Abraham's covenant with our ancestors is engraved." David thereupon promised a captaincy to the person who should destroy the figures; and Joab secured the prize (comp. II Sam. v. 6; I Chron. xi. 6). David then took the city of Jebus from its owners; the right of appeal to the covenant with Abraham had been forfeited by them through the war they had waged against Joshua; and after the figures themselves had been destroyed, David had not to fear even that the people would reproach him with having broken the covenant. Nevertheless he paid the inhabitants in coin the full value of the city (comp. II Sam. xxiv. 24; I Chron. xxi. 25), collecting the money from all the tribes of Israel; so that the Holy City became their common property (Pirḳe R. El. xxxvi.; comp. David Luria's notes in his commentary ad loc.; on the money paid for Jerusalem, comp. Midr. Shemu'el xxxii., beginning; Sifre, Num. 42; Zeb. 16b).

According to a midrash quoted by Rashi on II Sam. v. 6, the Jebusites had in their city two figures—one of a blind person, representing Isaac, and one of a lame person, representing Jacob—and these figures had in their mouths the words of the covenant made between Abraham and the Jebusites.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...-jebusites

Quote:Here, god states "Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses." In other words, god is with him. Then god says "This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites." Therefore, if god is with them, these peoples will be driven out. But then it goes on to say "Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah." There are only three possibilites: god lied to him and was not with him; god was incapable of stopping the Jebusites; or this is a biblical contradiction.

There is a fourth possiablity. The nation of Israel is divided into 12 nations. Judah and the tribe of benjamin, where made to honor the covenant of Aberham. the other 10 tribes laid waste to all the other peoples mentioned. God stood with the other 10 tribes as promised and honored the agreement Aberham made through the tribes of Juda and Benjamin.

Quote:Well, we can ruke out god's failure as he is omnipotent and could not possibly fail at anything. As for god's lying:

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Hebrews 6:18 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

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and

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Numbers 23:19-20 19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
20 I have received a command to bless;
he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

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So god lying is out of the question. Therefore, the only remaining choice is that this is a contradiction.

This is the crux to the failure of your arguement. You have presupposed the reason the reason the judeans could not cast out the Jebusites . (that and perhaps you did not understand how the nation of Israel was divided into tribes repersenting each of the sons of Jacob, and that juda was only one of those tribes.)
Because God's promise was honored in every other region with every other tribe in which the promise of Aberham did not appply.

What else you got?

Quote:Because God's promise was honored in every other region with every other tribe in which the promise of Aberham did not appply.

Of course, archaeology has shown otherwise but I know facts don't even slow an asshole like you down, drippy.


I always liked this one.

Quote: 19 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.” -- Ezekiel 26 "The prophecy against Tyre

and.



Modern Tyre - Look....it has a mosque and everything!

Looks like "god" ( the so-called Soveriengn LORD ) fucked up.

So what you're saying is that god had already promised the Jebusites protection? Then why did he say they would conquer the Jebusites? And why does the second passage say "Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites", as in it was impossible, rather than that he didn't try?

(October 18, 2012 at 12:47 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Legos? Wow...
I guess god not being omnipotent explains why he doesn't have the ability to exist.

He wasn't omnipotent back then. You see, when Yahweh got started as just a volcano god of some obscure wandering tribe, one of many in a pantheon, He was powerful but with limited abilities. Eventually, He pulled himself up by His bootstraps to become the only one in His pantheon.

Quote:Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

The Lord needed a breather. I forget which verse it is but I remember reading later in the OT how Yahweh recounts that He was "refreshed".

The Bible later declares Yahweh is as mighty as a unicorn.

Quote:Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

Unicorns (or "wild ox" in the more modern translations) are powerful but not omnipotent.

Over time, he leveled up and got more and more powerful as a god until finally becoming omnipotent in the NT.

Quote:Revelation 19:6 The Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

I guess omnipotence is something you get as a 20th level god.

Quote: (And I'm not blind, I know you're a sock poe of Tiberius...though I can't remember where I read you were Tiberius)

BUZZZZZZZ! WRONG! But I'm flattered.

(October 18, 2012 at 12:16 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

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Joshua 3:7-10 And the Lord said to Joshua, “Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses. 8 Tell the priests who carry the ark of the covenant: ‘When you reach the edge of the Jordan’s waters, go and stand in the river.’”

9 Joshua said to the Israelites, “Come here and listen to the words of the Lord your God. 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.

---

Joshua 15:63 Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah.

---

Here, god states "Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses." In other words, god is with him. Then god says "This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites." Therefore, if god is with them, these peoples will be driven out. But then it goes on to say "Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah." There are only three possibilites: god lied to him and was not with him; god was incapable of stopping the Jebusites; or this is a biblical contradiction.

Well, we can rule out god's failure as he is omnipotent and could not possibly fail at anything. As for god's lying:

---

Hebrews 6:18 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

---

and

---

Numbers 23:19-20 19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
20 I have received a command to bless;
he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

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So god lying is out of the question. Therefore, the only remaining choice is that this is a contradiction.

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Wait, I remember now (thanks to our resident poe):

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Judges 1:19 19 The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

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Here is the answer: god couldn't win because of iron chariots...
Yeah, I don't get it either.
You might object that it says Judah, and not Joshua, but the promise was extended to Judah in the below passage.

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Judges 1:1-2 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the Lord, “Who of us is to go up first to fight against the Canaanites?”

2 The Lord answered, “Judah shall go up; I have given the land into their hands.”

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Nonetheless, it says the lord was with them, and in the early passage it says he will show he is with them by allowing them to conquer such and such kingdoms, including the Jebusites, who they failed to defeat.

So, it looks like god is a little less than all-powerful today. But, the apologist will say, god is not necessarily omnipotent. (At least s/he will say this if s/he wishes to avoid the contradiction, but that would bring up other problems.)

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Matt 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

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Therefore god is omnipotent, therefore all things, including the defeat of iron chariots, are possible with god. However, it says "but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron." Unable as in couldn't do it. But, "The Lord was with the men of Judah." and "This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites." Key word certainly.
I don't know how even an apologist could weasel their way out of this one, but they never cease to appaul disgust annoy...amaze me.

(October 18, 2012 at 1:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Because God's promise was honored in every other region with every other tribe in which the promise of Aberham did not appply.

Of course, archaeology has shown otherwise but I know facts don't even slow an asshole like you down, drippy.


I always liked this one.

Quote: 19 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.” -- Ezekiel 26 "The prophecy against Tyre

and.



Modern Tyre - Look....it has a mosque and everything!

Looks like "god" ( the so-called Soveriengn LORD ) fucked up.

Look at your picture a little more closly minnie. To me it seems like God's word is being proved here. For in the Foreground we see the ruins of the 'city' in which Ezekial spoke. It remains desolate. God did not curse the ground of tyre where no one could ever dewell on the grounds ever again (like He did with Eden or Sodom and Gormorrah.) He cursed the actual city and the people who lived there. Again it looks to me by your own pic that no one of that time is left alive nor is their anyone living in the orginal city ezk spoke of. So what part of the phophesy tickles your fancy so?