(November 3, 2012 at 5:00 pm)Chuck Wrote: Because christianity relies at its heart on biblical assertions irreconciliable with systems of truth finding demonstrated to have sustained unique and genuine improvements in human condition, Nothing can have sustainable moral authority without at it its heart being fundamentally irreconciliable with the bible.

You've overestimated me. What?

Systems of truth finding? Are you saying that you don't believe there's evidence to warrant a belief in Christianity?

Also, I didn't follow on why you can't have moral authority that reconciles with the Bible. A government can say, "don't kill" ..... that coincides with Biblical principles.

I'm probably just missing the boat on this, your vocab and phrasing was over my head.

Sorry Chuck, can you say it in a different way?

(November 3, 2012 at 7:16 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Also, I didn't follow on why you can't have moral authority that reconciles with the Bible. A government can say, "don't kill" ..... that coincides with Biblical principles.

What if the "don't kill" injunction conflicted with biblical principles? Would you still stand by your position of "submit[ting] to authority unless it conflicts with Biblical truth"?

(November 3, 2012 at 7:27 pm)Stimbo Wrote: What if the "don't kill" injunction conflicted with biblical principles? Would you still stand by your position of "submit[ting] to authority unless it conflicts with Biblical truth"?

You're talking about the euthyphro dilemma.

The Judeo-Christian version would be something like:

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

(taken from wikipedia)

It's a false dilema though. There is a third option.

God is the perfect moral being and his commands extend from or are in line with his nature (which is morally perfect and good).

There wouldn't be a moral law from God that commanded as a normative principle to murder.

(November 3, 2012 at 7:34 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: You're talking about the euthyphro dilemma.

The Judeo-Christian version would be something like:

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

(taken from wikipedia)

It's a false dilema though. There is a third option.

God is the perfect moral being and his commands extend from or are in line with his nature (which is morally perfect and good).

Your third option is just first option re-worded. To declare god as the perfect moral being, you'd first need an independent moral standard.

(November 3, 2012 at 7:34 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: God is the perfect moral being and his commands extend from or are in line with his nature (which is morally perfect and good).

There wouldn't be a moral law from God that commanded as a normative principle to murder.

Quote:Question: "What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?"

Answer: The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

Quote:God’s Rules And Regulations
In addition to all the previously mentioned atrocities, God hands down a nightmarishly inhumane code for his creations to live by. In fact, there would literally be millions of murders committed every day if God still had his way. I’ll certainly admit that a few of the more sane guidelines are acceptable, but many are definitely not within the bounds of justice and humanity. Those are the ones in need of a serious impartial review. A few examples allegedly handed down by God follow.
Anyone who goes uncircumcised is to be exiled from his people (Genesis 17:14).
If a man has sex with a menstruating women, both are to be exiled (Leviticus 20:18).
A man who marries a mother and daughter must burn in a fire (Leviticus 20:14).
If two men have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:13).
If a mother and son have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:11).
If a man and daughter-in-law have sex, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:12).
If a man has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:15).
If a woman has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:16).
Anyone who attacks his mother or father must be put to death (Exodus 21:15).
Anyone who curses his mother or father must be put to death (Leviticus 20:9).
Anyone who commits murder must be put to death (Leviticus 24:17).
Anyone who commits adultery must be put to death (Deuteronomy 22:22).
Anyone who commits perjury must be put to death (Deuteronomy 19:18-19).
Anyone who commits kidnapping must be put to death (Exodus 21:16).
Anyone who disobeys a judge or priest must be put to death (Deuteronomy 17:12).
Anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death (Exodus 35:2).
Anyone who does not worship God must be put to death (2 Chronicles 15:13).
Any strangers approaching a sanctuary must be put to death (Numbers 17:7).
Any prophet who tries to turn you against God must be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:5).
Any prophet who makes a wrong prediction must be put to death (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).
Family members who tempt you with other gods must be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).
If an ox gores someone, the ox and its owner must be stoned to death (Exodus 21:29).
Anyone who claims to talk with spirits must be stoned to death (Leviticus 20:27).
A stubborn and rebellious son must be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).
Any woman who has had premarital sex must be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 22:21).
Anyone who worships another god must be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 17:2-7).
Anyone who curses or blasphemes must be stoned to death (Leviticus 24:14-16).
Break the neck of your donkey’s firstborn or kill a lamb instead (Exodus 34:20).
If a city worships other gods, kill everyone in it and burn it (Deuteronomy 13:12-16).

to be fair I never read the bible, i read the koran and found it`s medieval views repulsive - so i wont eaven waste my time reading through the bronze age views you have.

I got this from the internet after a quick google search.
So since your god is a "perfect moral being" i would like you to explain how the things above can be seen as "moraly ok"
I`ll leave you the links as source with a more detailed explaination in it.

http://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter9.html

(November 3, 2012 at 7:42 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: So since your god is a "perfect moral being" i would like you to explain how the things above can be seen as "moraly ok"

Those are great questions, unfortunately, I am not the one best equipped to tackle your objections.

However I do recommend this book to help answer your questions

"Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan
http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-Monst...0801072751

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(November 3, 2012 at 7:42 pm)genkaus Wrote: Your third option is just first option re-worded. To declare god as the perfect moral being, you'd first need an independent moral standard.

I'm saying that his character/nature is the perfect moral standard and his commands align with his character/nature.

I believe that He is the beginning and there is nothing beyond Him......I'm not a believer in this moral platonism stuff where there are abstract objects (morals being one of them) floating about (I know that's oversimplified).

Quote:I'm saying that his character/nature is the perfect moral standard and his commands align with his character/nature.

This means that you condone (indeed, you encourage) everything he does or commands, including genocide, rape, and slavery, because you believe these actions are compatible with 'perfect morals'.

(November 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I'm saying that his character/nature is the perfect moral standard and his commands align with his character/nature.

And by saying that his character is the perfect moral standard, you are judging it according to some other independent moral standard - otherwise the statement is meaningless.

(November 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I believe that He is the beginning and there is nothing beyond Him......

Which says nothing about his moral character.

(November 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I'm not a believer in this moral platonism stuff where there are abstract objects (morals being one of them) floating about (I know that's oversimplified).

But you are. You simply call it god.

(November 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:

(November 3, 2012 at 7:42 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: So since your god is a "perfect moral being" i would like you to explain how the things above can be seen as "moraly ok"

Those are great questions, unfortunately, I am not the one best equipped to tackle your objections.

However I do recommend this book to help answer your questions

"Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan
http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-Monst...0801072751

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(November 3, 2012 at 7:42 pm)genkaus Wrote: Your third option is just first option re-worded. To declare god as the perfect moral being, you'd first need an independent moral standard.

I'm saying that his character/nature is the perfect moral standard and his commands align with his character/nature.

I believe that He is the beginning and there is nothing beyond Him......I'm not a believer in this moral platonism stuff where there are abstract objects (morals being one of them) floating about (I know that's oversimplified).

So when god sends two bears to maul to death children who mocked Elisha,(kings 2:23-24) that's moral behaviour?

(November 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: However I do recommend this book to help answer your questions

"Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan

Somehow, I sense what we would get from him would not be terribly satisfying.

Quote:Paul Copan is a Ukrainian-American Christian theologian, analytic philosopher, apologist, and author.