What archaeology has shown, Annik, is that in the 10th century ( the time when even fundies insist that David and Solomon "lived") the population of Judah was about 15-20,000 primarily pastoral nomads herding their sheep and goats around. The numbers of people living in the region are flat out fucking ridiculous. The land lacked the water and agricultural base needed to sustain a population of that level. Jerusalem itself is an even bigger question mark. Excavations have shown that at most it was a miserable little hilltop village but far more likely is that it was simply a fortified manor house ( think European "castle") which served as the seat for the local ruler. It's only water source was the Gihon Spring which could not have supported a large population and did not until the Roman era when aqueducts were built.

"Israel" the supposed northern kingdom was somewhat more populated but even that did not seem to become a going concern until the 9th century.

I'm afraid for Drippy and the rest that his precious OT is nothing but much later propaganda.

(November 4, 2012 at 10:19 am)Drich Wrote: God's "perfect morality" is call Righteousness. Righteousness is NOT 'Morality.'Morality is man standard of or attempt at Righteousness with the sin he is willing to incorperate or live with mixed into God's Righteous Standard. This personal sense of righteousness or as Christ Identifies it this Self Righteousness often time over values certain areas of the Law to try make up for the over looked areas. In essence 'Morality' is whatever we want it to be, because it is a failed attempt at True Righteousness that has been justified through a strong sense of Self Righteousness.

So, rape and torture and genocide and slavery are righteous as well!

You are saying we cannot judge God because our morals are flawed. What you are actually saying is that what is wrong with our morality is that we view rape, torture, slavery and genocide in a negative light. If we were perfectly righteous and moral, as God is, these activities would not seem wrong to us.

Quote:It can't because God does not yield to Man's self Righteous Standard.

Rapists, slavers and torturers also do not yield to Man's self-righteous standard. We call them criminals and punish them. The reason God does not yield to our standard is because he is not capable of doing so. He is only capable of representing everything in humanity we call criminal behavior.

I find it interesting that you have to resort to such nonsense in order to dodge the obvious fact that you worship a god whose closest analogues in the human world would be guys like Hitler and Stalin. Since you do worship such a monster, you are telling us that these criminal behaviors are righteous and moral. As indeed you did in the passage I previously quoted.

(November 4, 2012 at 10:12 am)Stimbo Wrote: What if what is commanded in your holy book is in direct conflict with societal considerations? Specifically with regard to the original question, suppose your god via your book commanded you to kill for whatever reason, say stoning adulteres to death, yet society didn't let you (which it doesn't). To whom do you pledge your allegiance?

I was attempting to answer you question Stimbo. I apologize if I seemed to be trying to raise a red herring (I don't know the proper way to phrase that).

My answer was simply, God wouldn't do that.

I will never have to make that decision.

---

(November 4, 2012 at 12:31 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: That you recomend this book by that person pritty much explains your stance on science and rational inquiry.
You prefer the babble of a person who prefers to create a institution out of reach from reasonable intelectual debates conducted in unis by professionals, so he can give his talking points to his audience without fearing rational inquiry.

Dont you think, that that pritty much is the core problem arround which the main issue of this thread centers, only that in this specific case, it is not a irrational individual ignoring the rational inquiry of the scientific world: creating a parallel-sociaty, but a person ignoring the rational inquiry of the scientific world - intruding into the scientific world.

I simply recommended the book because he has done a vast amount of research on the topic.

You have given me more credit than I deserve in assuming how much thought I put into that recommendation.

(November 5, 2012 at 3:37 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:

(November 4, 2012 at 10:12 am)Stimbo Wrote: What if what is commanded in your holy book is in direct conflict with societal considerations? Specifically with regard to the original question, suppose your god via your book commanded you to kill for whatever reason, say stoning adulteres to death, yet society didn't let you (which it doesn't). To whom do you pledge your allegiance?

I was attempting to answer you question Stimbo. I apologize if I seemed to be trying to raise a red herring (I don't know the proper way to phrase that).

My answer was simply, God wouldn't do that.

I will never have to make that decision.

How do you know? The god character is known for ordering such things in those holy books, there have been individuals who have tried to defend crimes of this nature by claiming that their god commanded it. How can you say for certain that your god wouldn't command you to act in that way? Or are you placing constraints on what it can and can't do? So I repeat: to whom would you place your allegiance - to your fellow man or to a god who some have used as justification for antisocial and murderous behaviour?

(November 5, 2012 at 3:58 pm)Stimbo Wrote: How can you say for certain that your god wouldn't command you to act in that way? Or are you placing constraints on what it can and can't do? So I repeat: to whom would you place your allegiance - to your fellow man or to a god who some have used as justification for antisocial and murderous behaviour?

You are asking a different questions now so I will give you a different answers.

Your original question was "if the Bible said to kill, would I kill."

I responded by saying I wouldn't have to ever make that decision. My reason was because the Bible has already been written and I know that isn't the normative moral of the Bible's teaching.


Now your new questions have two parts.

If God commanded me to kill, would I?

And

Who is my allegiance to, God or man?

If God manifested himself to me in an undeniable way and commands me to kill, I would kill.

Since I know He is a loving God because I have experienced Him, I trust that He would use my actions for a greater good.

Who is my allegiance to, God or man? Hands down God.

Quote:My reason was because the Bible has already been written and I know that isn't the normative moral of the Bible's teaching.

If you think so, I feel quite certain that you have never actually read it.

Well spotted that I expanded upon my original question. Your first answer tells me that you don't necessarily take what is written in your special book as literal commandments, perhaps more as guidelines (even though the god character is recorded as having commanded such things). Still, so far I find little on which to disagree.

Your second answer, however, is vastly more problematic if honestly expressed, not to mention interestingly revealing.

(November 2, 2012 at 7:29 pm)Drich Wrote: Meh.. If you see it what else is their to say?

Hahahaha?

(November 5, 2012 at 5:29 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: If God manifested himself to me in an undeniable way and commands me to kill, I would kill.

This is truly worrying.

Imagine that the barbaric peoples that came before and had polytheistic gods were right.
Imagine that Loki shows up to you, proves he's a god, and orders you to wreak havoc.
You'll do it, because you're deluded that there can only be one god!!


Or better yet, let's stay within your brand of gods. Imagine the devil comes to you and asks you to kill someone. He'll show to you that he is a god...


It's a good thing this doesn't happen, isn't it?

Although there are people who claim god or the devil ordered them to do some despicable thing... they end up in some sort of mental institution. You don't want that for you, do you?

Quote:Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: If God manifested himself to me in an undeniable way and commands me to kill, I would kill.

The mantra of suicide bombers and just plain crazy people throughout time.


http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2001-08...-documents

Quote:Mom: God Told Me To Kill My Baby

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/12/D...234475937/

Quote:During the interview, Hagerman said that God had told him to kill his son, Joshua, to keep him from the anti-Christ.

http://trailerpark.blog.ca/2008/01/22/do...l~3613340/

Quote:According to Blair Donnelly; God told him to kill his daughter!!

I'm sure you get the point....or perhaps not.