(November 30, 2012 at 12:12 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Sorry, I have to post this...

No, we're sorry. The fact as an idiot jesus freak it is about all you are capable of doing.

Trotting out absurd bible bullshit means nothing, pal.

He's talking about no more religious debate and the Bible says basically the same thing... I think that it's funny as Hades. lol
.

(November 29, 2012 at 11:14 pm)Polaris Wrote: There is no definitive correlation between logical thinking and atheism.

Nor is there correlation between logic and theism. What's your point here? Logic is a tool. What's the difference between definitive correlation and correlation. Does the 'definitive' qualifier invoke an idea of a correlation slope > 1? You can use the tool of logic all you want, but if a premise of your logic is false, your conclusion is baseless. There's still the mantra that correlation doesn't mean causation.

Quote:Trying to appeal to reason is not a path to disbelief so much as an excuse for not believing. It's like saying I don't believe and now I will come up with anything I can (much of it actually violates academia) to prove I am right in my convictions.....it's what the religious people do to justify their beliefs.

Now you throw reason out the door. Reason is more powerful than logic. It's 'reason' that is employed to conclude that a result of perfect logic is incorrect if the premise is untrue. You dismiss the powerful combination of reason and logic because they don't result in your indocrinated absolute truths.

Quote:One simply does not believe usually because they have not seen/felt any evidence. I don't believe in vampires, but I am not going to go around wasting my time trying to disprove their existence.

Why not? Bram Stoker gave as much compelling evidence for the existence of vampires as the assumed authors of the bible gave for your god. Confirmation bias is a bitch. You have no more evidence for the actual existence of your god (and son) than Stoker did for his vampires.

You can believe whatever bullshit you want. I really don't care. I start to care when you use your unsubstantiated beliefs to influence legislation that limits my liberty based on the sensibilities of your particular ancient tribal beliefs.

If my rather scant reading of the deconversion literature is any indication, it is often not so much the case that reason led people to atheism as it is that reason led them away from religion.

Bart Ehrman's case is typical. He started as a fundamentalist Christian and, as a consequence of study and contemplation, eventually wound his way to a position of agnosticism (last I heard, largely on account of the issue of theodicy). Many find they can't reconcile their desires for truth and knowledge with the answers they find once they go looking for it in the substance of their religion. Their passion for truth pushes them out the other side of faith. (Atheist pastors still in the fold would be an interesting population to study in this regard.)

This is only one of multiple streams that lead to a position of atheism, anti-theism, agnosticism, deism, or non-affiliated non-believer, but it is a prominent one.


Oh, and if you want to toss around correlation, bear in mind that in the United States, religiosity correlates strongly with poverty, lack of education, and stupidity.

Quote:Higher education is positively correlated with atheism, agnosticism, and secularity (Baker 2008; Sherkat 2008, 2003; Johnson 1997; Argyle and Beit-Hallahmi 1975). For example, 42 percent of Americans claiming to have ‘‘no religion’’, 32 percent of American atheists, and 42 percent of American agnostics have graduated from college – all higher than the percentage of college graduates in the general American adult population, which is 27 percent (Kosmin 2008; Keysar 2007). Attending college as well as graduate school – and having an ‘‘intellectual orientation’’ – are also significant predictors of who will reject or abandon their religion at some point in their life (Beit-Hallahmi 2007; Altemeyer 2009; Hayes 2000, 1995a; Sherkat and Ellison 1991; McAllister 1998; Altemeyer and Hunsberger 1997; Hadaway and Roof 1988). Furthering the link between education ⁄ intellectualism and secularity, recent studies have found that secular people score markedly higher on tests of verbal ability and verbal sophistication when compared religious people (Sherkat 2006), and secular people also score markedly higher on indicators of scientific proficiency than religious people (Sherkat 2009).

— Zuckerman, 2009

(November 30, 2012 at 12:17 am)catfish Wrote: He's talking about no more religious debate and the Bible says basically the same thing... I think that it's funny as Hades. lol
.

You say that Jesus didn't die for everyone's sins. The Bible says he did. lol

(November 29, 2012 at 10:35 pm)Gambit Wrote: Not quite; I'm curious to learn what leads people to lack belief in gods. I'm curious about the supposed correlation between logical thinking and atheism. I'm curious about a lot of things; I'm just not curious to hear any more religious apologetics.

And I'm curious about what leads people to believe in gods, since I seem to be unable to do so myself.

The correlation of religiosity and lack of education suggests gullibility, but this fails to account for all the educated and religious people out there.... There must be something else.

(November 30, 2012 at 6:50 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(November 29, 2012 at 10:35 pm)Gambit Wrote: Not quite; I'm curious to learn what leads people to lack belief in gods. I'm curious about the supposed correlation between logical thinking and atheism. I'm curious about a lot of things; I'm just not curious to hear any more religious apologetics.

And I'm curious about what leads people to believe in gods, since I seem to be unable to do so myself.

The correlation of religiosity and lack of education suggests gullibility, but this fails to account for all the educated and religious people out there.... There must be something else.

Actually, that is a considerably more interesting subject. I suspect that most of it is cultural, reinforced by a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance. I've debated really intelligent (Not gymnastic apologists) Christians into a corner, only for a trip switch to go off and set them into a state of cognitive dissonance.

My girl, for instance, went into complete meltdown when I pointed out that her compassion for people conflicts with the genocidal nature of the bible God. She couldn't resolve the two things in her head, so she went and asked her mom for advice. She was told that we shouldn't question god, but instead go out and help people ourselves. I didn't want to push the point, so I just left it at that.

(November 29, 2012 at 9:37 pm)Gambit Wrote:

---

I've been thinking about this, and it's only now really dawning on me - I didn't join this forum to debate religion/beliefs. I came here to learn about atheism, and explore all that it entails - or doesn't, as the case may be.

I am a member of a number of religious forums, so if I want to hear the theist point of view I can go to those forums. Although, one must craft questions in a very specific way, otherwise the ban hammer comes down swiftly, and with the wrath of mighty Thor.

My short term memory is terrible, so I'll probably forget this personal revelation in short order. Please please please, if you see me taking part in any of the stupid threads posted by theists, verbally kick me in the nuts.

---

This is an important thread, and it needed to be posted. I just have one question - why did you post it in the Religion forum and not the Atheist forum?? Surely the "Religion forum" is for discussing religion here, yes?

I have always been an atheist, as have a growing minority of British folk (according to various studies and census data). I was never indoctrinated and my parents taught me (crucially) how to think and not what to think. I was also put off ever being religious by attending a CofE primary school which had a fundamentalist head teacher who, honestly, turned more of the children into out and out atheists than Christians.

I think a lack of belief in a god or gods isn't really the cause, more apathy. If you ask the average person on the street they're still nominally 'Christian', but very few will know why, or have even stepped into a church aside from funerals, weddings and the odd christening. The question never really comes up as to why one is an atheist/Christian except in the census, and the 2001 recorded over 14% actively identify as such (at least). I think, due in part to various religious scandals and the prevalence of famous atheists and scientists (in the UK like Dawkins, Hitchens, Brian cox, Carl Sagan, etc) the 2011 census will see this number rise substantially.

If push came to shove, you'd 9 times out of 10 get a response of "well, guess I'm an atheist" anyway. Most Christian religions in the UK are dying out (excluding 'black' Christian churches which are actually growing), including Methodism, which will be dead a buried here within the next 20 years or so if current trends continue, with the Anglican CofE not far behind.

(November 30, 2012 at 8:47 am)Daniel Wrote:

(November 29, 2012 at 9:37 pm)Gambit Wrote:

---

I've been thinking about this, and it's only now really dawning on me - I didn't join this forum to debate religion/beliefs. I came here to learn about atheism, and explore all that it entails - or doesn't, as the case may be.

I am a member of a number of religious forums, so if I want to hear the theist point of view I can go to those forums. Although, one must craft questions in a very specific way, otherwise the ban hammer comes down swiftly, and with the wrath of mighty Thor.

My short term memory is terrible, so I'll probably forget this personal revelation in short order. Please please please, if you see me taking part in any of the stupid threads posted by theists, verbally kick me in the nuts.

---

This is an important thread, and it needed to be posted. I just have one question - why did you post it in the Religion forum and not the Atheist forum?? Surely the "Religion forum" is for discussing religion here, yes?

Probably. My logic at the time was that I wanted to discuss not having religious debates, but I also knew that it would result in some religious debate. Technically, I should have posted the OP and then STFU.