(December 1, 2012 at 1:30 am)The truth Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 12:58 am)Voltron Wrote: So the difference is how many people witnessed the claim? What's the criteria?

You've answered it. More eye witnesses of a claim leaves us with greater evidence. Witness equals evidence I thought you knew that?

What eye witnesses accounts?

All you have are the gospels written many decades after the events they are supposed to depict, often having widely contradictory accounts. We don't know who really wrote these gospels (the names only come through late guess work of later Christians).

Then you have Paul who's only connection to Jesus was through a "vision" (hallucination?). There's a reference to I think "500" witnesses to the resurrection but that easily can be made up. No body would have bothered to travel all the way Jerusalem to check up on these supposed witnesses to see if they really saw what whatever evangelist said they did.

Even if one or two people decided to play detective and go all the way to Jerusalem to interview somebody who supposedly saw the resurrection, and then found those accounts to false, that wouldn't stop the growth of Christianity. Said detectives could be claimed to be lying or spiritually blind by the evangelist.

(December 1, 2012 at 1:30 am)The truth Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 12:58 am)Voltron Wrote: So the difference is how many people witnessed the claim? What's the criteria?

You've answered it. More eye witnesses of a claim leaves us with greater evidence. Witness equals evidence I thought you knew that?

More people witnessing suspect claims does not equal greater evidence.

(December 1, 2012 at 1:39 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: What eye witnesses accounts?

Indeed. Who are these eyewitnesses? Where is their testimony?

(crickets)

This crowd said the following: "Look in the sky! It's a bird! No, it's plane. No! It's SUPERMAN!"



Are you really going to deny the existence of Superman and his wonderful powers?! THESE PEOPLE WERE EYEWITNESSES!

(December 1, 2012 at 12:39 am)Darkstar Wrote:

(November 30, 2012 at 11:23 pm)The truth Wrote: Darkstar do you really need abscene proof or just hard facts to support history? Your statement is not true. Obviously there is no way to proove the ressurection of Christ. But there are many facts that support it.

Facts? As in plural? I thought 'empty tomb', which doesn't even provide evidence for a ressurection, was the only one you had.
I've never said that the empty tomb was the only evidence I had. I only decided to argue from that point only because i knew you couldn't prove me wrong. I achieved my agenda: history shows us an empty tomb cased closed. I also said historical evidence from present day historians was also supportive facts. And there are many more.

(November 30, 2012 at 11:23 pm)The truth Wrote: Notice I said historical facts.

Notice you didn't say historical facts.
Or was that a sarcastic remark debasing your who argument?/sarcasm

(November 30, 2012 at 11:23 pm)The truth Wrote: Can you prove Darwin didn't think about accepting Christ on his death bed? No. But we can search the facts and go from there.

What? What does that have to do with anything? Also, I don't think that Darwin was ever an atheist to begin with.
Can you prove that Darwin wasn't an atheist?
What? What does that have to do with anything?
If Darwin did think about receiving Christ on his dying bed then this would be an awakening. Darwin who created evolution thought about repenting of his false theology. This means that he wasn't fully in acceptance of this new found theology. His theology he doubted and with good intentions. He questioned what you call a religion. Its possible your founding father questioned what you spend your life relying on.

(November 30, 2012 at 11:23 pm)The truth Wrote: Can you prove what caused the big bang? No. No. No. Know that's funny.

Can you provide evidence for what caused the big bang? No, not if it is anything more than a baseless assumption. That is, of course, assuming that the big bang could not have been spontaneous (I don't know enough on the subject to say). People trying to figure out the big bang uses science. Science works. Even if we can't yet prove anything about it, we have a far greater reason to believe we are right than you do. Also, if a god caused the big bang, it would only qualify as proof of Desim, not Christianity.

I don't get it? You say science do not know what started the universe. But then you question the bible's answer concerning the universe. How is that possible? If science don't know than how can you be shore that every one else is wrong? Is this logic? Can you prove that god didn't create the universe based on science? No! Besides, what you stated about deism that's your opinion not fact.

(December 1, 2012 at 2:05 am)The truth Wrote: I don't get it? You say science do not know what started the universe. But then you question the bible's answer concerning the universe. How is that possible? If science don't know than how can you be shore that every one else is wrong? Is this logic? Can you prove that god didn't create the universe based on science? No! Besides, what you stated about deism that's your opinion not fact.

You, sir, are passing off unfalsifiable assumptions with no evidence in support of them as uncontestable fact. I can't prove god didn't do it any more than you can prove he did. It is simply the fact that there is no good reason to believe he did. If you don't have evidence, and science does, but science doesn't know for sure, then I can safely say you can't know for sure either.

And about Deism, that is not an opinion. Do you know the definition of deism? If a god created the universe this would prove a deistic god, but would not be sufficient to prove the specific god Yahweh.

(December 1, 2012 at 1:40 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 1:39 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: What eye witnesses accounts?

Indeed. Who are these eyewitnesses? Where is their testimony?

(crickets)

The new testament, the early church, the thousands of souls who died for his name in the first century. Are you kidding me? Paul who once killed the church but was converted and served it until his death. The eye witness testimony showed evidence by how they over took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years! And it wasn't with weapons. but with sighns and wonders, love, and the witness of Christ ressurection. There testimony has turned the world upside down for two thousand years. It's the reason why you're talking about it know. Christianity's effect in the first century is a known fact. There effect in anctient rome is also a known historical fact.

(December 1, 2012 at 2:29 am)The truth Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 1:40 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Indeed. Who are these eyewitnesses? Where is their testimony?

(crickets)

The new testament, the early church, the thousands of souls who died for his name in the first century. Are you kidding me? Paul who once killed the church but was converted and served it until his death. The eye witness testimony showed evidence by how they over took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years! And it wasn't with weapons. but with sighns and wonders, love, and the witness of Christ ressurection. There testimony has turned the world upside down for two thousand years. It's the reason why you're talking about it know. Christianity's effect in the first century is a known fact. There effect in anctient rome is also a known historical fact.

A small amount of years? wtf? That was like close to 400 years!

And again, the conversion of Paul, these "witnesses" you keep naming. It could easily be legend.

(December 1, 2012 at 2:29 am)The truth Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 1:40 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Indeed. Who are these eyewitnesses? Where is their testimony?

(crickets)

The new testament, the early church, the thousands of souls who died for his name in the first century. Are you kidding me? Paul who once killed the church but was converted and served it until his death. The eye witness testimony showed evidence by how they over took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years! And it wasn't with weapons. but with sighns and wonders, love, and the witness of Christ ressurection. There testimony has turned the world upside down for two thousand years. It's the reason why you're talking about it know. Christianity's effect in the first century is a known fact. There effect in anctient rome is also a known historical fact.

I'm referring specifically to the account of the resurrection / empty tomb story. At best all you have is second hand stories, and as nobody knows who wrote the gospels, you can't even reasonably claim that.

And frankly, without that, you've got nothing.

(December 1, 2012 at 2:33 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 2:29 am)The truth Wrote: The new testament, the early church, the thousands of souls who died for his name in the first century. Are you kidding me? Paul who once killed the church but was converted and served it until his death. The eye witness testimony showed evidence by how they over took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years! And it wasn't with weapons. but with sighns and wonders, love, and the witness of Christ ressurection. There testimony has turned the world upside down for two thousand years. It's the reason why you're talking about it know. Christianity's effect in the first century is a known fact. There effect in anctient rome is also a known historical fact.

A small amount of years? wtf? That was like close to 400 years!
And again, the conversion of Paul, these "witnesses" you keep naming. It could easily be legend.

When I mean "took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years!" I was referring to the religions of Rome. Christanity swept threw Rome like a wild fire in the first one hundred years with the gosple of Christ. Any historian can tell you that.

You say the witnesses can easily be legend but they can easily be real. Where's your proof for such a statements. atheist make statements like "there was no witnesses of Christ resurrection" but then when we give you witnesses you say there legend. You cant choose history. If they are witnesses they are witnesses. You might dont cnoose to believe it but its still history. The historical facts are the written new testament of the bible. And the church father's of the late and early second century.

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(December 1, 2012 at 2:33 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 2:29 am)The truth Wrote: The new testament, the early church, the thousands of souls who died for his name in the first century. Are you kidding me? Paul who once killed the church but was converted and served it until his death. The eye witness testimony showed evidence by how they over took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years! And it wasn't with weapons. but with sighns and wonders, love, and the witness of Christ ressurection. There testimony has turned the world upside down for two thousand years. It's the reason why you're talking about it know. Christianity's effect in the first century is a known fact. There effect in anctient rome is also a known historical fact.

A small amount of years? wtf? That was like close to 400 years!
And again, the conversion of Paul, these "witnesses" you keep naming. It could easily be legend.

When I mean "took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years!" I was referring to the religions of Rome. Christanity swept threw Rome like a wild fire in the first one hundred years with the gosple of Christ. Any historian can tell you that.

You say the witnesses can easily be legend but they can easily be real. Where's your proof for such a statement? atheist make statements like "there was no witnesses of Christ resurrection" but then when we give you witnesses you say there legend. You cant choose history. If they are witnesses they are witnesses. You might not choose to believe it but its still history. The historical facts are the written new testament of the bible. And the church father's of the late and early second century.

---

(December 1, 2012 at 2:45 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 2:29 am)The truth Wrote: The new testament, the early church, the thousands of souls who died for his name in the first century. Are you kidding me? Paul who once killed the church but was converted and served it until his death. The eye witness testimony showed evidence by how they over took the entire roman empire in only a small amount of years! And it wasn't with weapons. but with sighns and wonders, love, and the witness of Christ ressurection. There testimony has turned the world upside down for two thousand years. It's the reason why you're talking about it know. Christianity's effect in the first century is a known fact. There effect in anctient rome is also a known historical fact.

I'm referring specifically to the account of the resurrection / empty tomb story. At best all you have is second hand stories, and as nobody knows who wrote the gospels, you can't even reasonably claim that.

And frankly, without that, you've got nothing.

Nobody knows who wrote the gosples? Are you serious? Better yet where's your evidence for such claims? Lol is this a joke?