(December 7, 2012 at 9:01 am)jonb Wrote: Categories only tell part of the picture, very few things have hard and fast edges. We live in a relative universe, where everything is interconnected, and I enjoy playing with all the differences if you know what I mean.

I counter.... All things have hard and fast edges, and that is why they are the specific being which things are. What that which has been identified as a 'thing' "really is"... perhaps it is everything, or it's all in (y)our head(s), or butterflies of blugimre garventury!

Is everything really interconnected? I thought it was a whole solid mass of maybes, of empty fullness, and of eternal somethingness.

I don't know what you mean, because I know too many ways I could know what you mean. Maybe you only mean one, or perhaps all, might even be a statement in jest alone!



But, if we're chittering on about our intersubjective understanding of this assumed universe based on presumptuous scientific principles... that's where I start having opinions and saying anything of substance.

Maybe!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1eicbZqfA

(December 7, 2012 at 1:15 am)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: I'm convinced that the fighting in Palestine isn't motivated by religion. Granted, the people in power love to use Allah's name because it gets the people to follow them. But in that sense people and religion are being manipulated for ultimately social ends. Religion is a factor, but not a driving factor. Palestinians and Israelis are not fighting because of Islamic or Jewish ideals.

Same with NI. It was more about hatred in the end, and money and politics and power than Catholics and Protestants.

If you don't get by now that religion was always just about manipulation of the masses to gain power and money you are either seriously stupid or self-imposed ignorant.
In your case my bet is both.
Religion has nothing to do with ideals what a fucking insult of my intellect.
Your attempts to put religion on some sort of pedestal where it doesn't belong is just sickening.
Religion is responsible for a setback in our development as a species of at least a millennium.
'Modern' organized monotheism is the worst thing that ever happened to us and will probably result in the use of a nuclear weapon in the near future ( the 2nd worst thing we ever came up with ).

But as long as you can comfortably enjoy being on a forum puking out your absurd bullshit you are fine right vinny ?... what do you care about reality.
Want some coffee with that vinny or a shoulder massasge ?
You know how much little black African kids died in the time it took me to type this, but hey .. what do you care right vinny... who gives a flying fuck about black African kids .. we are way too busy defending religion on a forum ....

Perhaps Vinny's terminology is unwise but his points are still valid. No doubt most of organised religion is to do with the manipulation of the masses. Often people are fighting against a nation because they think that nation will impose on their freedom to practice their ideals, regardless if that is true or not.

Yet I find it funny how some focus on how religion was a setback in evolution, when the ability to dream of a deity is seen as a development in itself, and is even an important stage in then rejecting that deity. One would also be inclined to question why one feels the pinnacle of development goes something like: no god, some god(s), then no god again. It should at least provoke the question of what is next.

Indeed, if one is considering hundreds or thousands of years in the context of 13.7 billion, religion is a fairly insignificant stage, at least it is as insignificant as the stage of atheism - or is that stage of development definitive for ever and ever like Einstein's static universe? Perhaps Einstein wasn't very clever either... [sarcasm]

Furthermore, do Stalin and Mao's massacres not count, or were they not real atheists? Also I'm fairly sure a lack of natural resources and over-population is as much to do with "little black African kids dying" as anyone's spiritual beliefs or what anyone does or doesn't post on a forum. Quite frankly, the empires, slavery, and banking systems, have done as much to fuck them over as the religious systems.

Man, I'm thoroughly against organised religion, but I couldn't let the last post of the thread be without context.

(December 7, 2012 at 9:39 am)jonb Wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1eicbZqfA

Delightfully random. Please do not spoil the moment by making a connection to the thread. Now I can't remember what the thread was about anyway but whatever it may have been this is better.

(December 9, 2012 at 12:00 am)naimless Wrote: Perhaps Vinny's terminology is unwise but his points are still valid. No doubt most of organised religion is to do with the manipulation of the masses. Often people are fighting against a nation because they think that nation will impose on their freedom to practice their ideals, regardless if that is true or not.

Yet I find it funny how some focus on how religion was a setback in evolution, when the ability to dream of a deity is seen as a development in itself, and is even an important stage in then rejecting that deity. One would also be inclined to question why one feels the pinnacle of development goes something like: no god, some god(s), then no god again. It should at least provoke the question of what is next.

Indeed, if one is considering hundreds or thousands of years in the context of 13.7 billion, religion is a fairly insignificant stage, at least it is as insignificant as the stage of atheism - or is that stage of development definitive for ever and ever like Einstein's static universe? Perhaps Einstein wasn't very clever either... [sarcasm]

Furthermore, do Stalin and Mao's massacres not count, or were they not real atheists? Also I'm fairly sure a lack of natural resources and over-population is as much to do with "little black African kids dying" as anyone's spiritual beliefs or what anyone does or doesn't post on a forum. Quite frankly, the empires, slavery, and banking systems, have done as much to fuck them over as the religious systems.

Man, I'm thoroughly against organised religion, but I couldn't let the last post of the thread be without context.

I refute this line of argument. Just because the goal posts have been placed in atheist v theist it does not mean that is where they should be.
I do not believe, not just in a god, but any philosophy that requires belief. Let us not forget Bolshevism was against natural selection, as they envisaged a evolution to a goal, The highest form of humanity the communist. Let us not forget how the Empires are interwoven with religion and the church supported these Empires, and slavery, and that old song with the lyric 'the rich man in his mansion, and the poor man at his gate'. So what does the field of guilt look live if we make the division of the two sides along the lines of philosophies that require the individual to adhere to a church or party line, and free thinkers?

(December 9, 2012 at 12:42 am)jonb Wrote: So what does the field of guilt look like if we make the division of the two sides along the lines of philosophies that require the individual to adhere to a church or party line, and free thinkers?

What is your definition of a free thinker in each time period? Protestants were once free thinkers in relation to Catholicism...

(December 9, 2012 at 1:53 am)naimless Wrote: What is your definition of a free thinker in each time period? Protestants were once free thinkers in relation to Catholicism...

To an extent I will go along with you, when protestants had no power they were all for the rights of the individual, but partly because it is inherent to philosophies that postulate a sky daddy, as soon as they got some power, they enforced their own way of thinking with the sword.
However that does not blacken philosophies that do not believe in force to limit thinking, it only depicts a difference between the two.

(December 9, 2012 at 10:43 pm)jonb Wrote: However that does not blacken philosophies that do not believe in force to limit thinking, it only depicts a difference between the two.

In order to have a philosophy that does not believe in "force to limit thinking", you also need a philosophy that does, and a lot of other philosophies in-between.

I don't see how you can depict a difference between those who are free thinkers and those who are not.

The freedom is always relative to the non-freedom in the time and environment. No doubt in 1000 years "free thinkers" will look at definitions of free thinking in this time period as delusional.

(December 3, 2012 at 12:23 am)naimless Wrote: I realise it isn't the "one true universal truth"; it is just the most harsh and probable one I've found considering there are over 2000 documented gods. I realise I will experience new things from this moment to my death - But I know I'll not experience the over 2000 gods and the over 7 billion perceptions of them in that time.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. You glossed over my post to you as if I had an agenda that is contrary to your sovereign being. I don't, all I said was there is much for you to discover. Depending on your passions and interests it could be history, arts, science, etc. There are many things in my life that are important to me and I'll tell you a secret - most of them are replaceable. I have an interest in science, but if I didn't have science I could substitute it for another interest. I have an interest in politics, but let's say the Liberal Party of Australia decided to rescind my membership for some conflict-of-interest reason, well I could substitute that for another interest. Or in the future I could become more involved in politics. The options available to me are as numerous as the options afforded to the Billions of people on the planet, and I am in a privileged position being that I'm in a very wealthy country to be able to take advantage of this. What you do is up to you.

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(December 3, 2012 at 5:43 am)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: All it seems to me that you are saying is that not believing in god makes you unhappy, which of course daniel loves...

Why don't you pull your head out of the sand and try not telling people what my opinion is - don't you think I'm capable of articulating my position myself?

Quote:No easy solution here and I suspect you are thinking of going back to religion to soothe your fears. Maybe you should if you are so weak minded, you'll find plenty of equally scared and weak minded individuals there who you can identify with.

What's that smell? What a load of horseshit! Firstly, the OP may very well be "scared" and "weak minded" and you have no right to stigmatize that. Secondly, of course there are scared and weakminded Xians, and there are plenty of strong-minded confident ones as well. Again this is you stigmatizing people's weaknesses. You think I judge people for their weaknesses? I think you do. If the OP is bold enough and honest enough to open up about his vulnerabilities here, it is not your place to stigmatize. I find it admirable that he has been honest about his weak and vulnerable side, a side we all have and we all have to come to terms with.

And FYI I do not like to see anyone who is unhappy. Next time keep your bullshit to yourself.

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(December 4, 2012 at 7:31 am)naimless Wrote: Well I agree... so why do Dawkins & co. persist in disturbing those who enjoy a spiritual life?

That's a great question! It's not just Dawkins, a lot of atheists like to tell Christians and other religious people what to believe about their beliefs (with no expertise to do so). It'd be like a musician giving history lessons to seasoned anthropologists.

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(December 4, 2012 at 10:01 am)naimless Wrote: How do I have free will if the environment of the universe is 13.7 billion years my superior? If I have free will it is because my determined environment has enabled me to believe in it, which is just as much of a delusion as believing in god is.

The universe isn't deterministic. It has rules, it has "laws", but that doesn't necessitate it being "deterministic". That scientific line of reasoning is 60 years out of date today (or more than 100 years even if you view QM as shattering that world view forever).