At the risk of feeding this horribly timed argument, I must point out that one could make enough explosives to have killed many, many more people with far less hassle than buying a gun. Furthermore, you can make a deadly chemical gas with what is in my bathroom right now. That's just the reality of it. You can kill people with very little and kill a lot of people at that.

I'm ashamed of myself for contributing. Damn.

I wonder if the firearms were registered to the actual gunman. Does anyone know?

NPR was saying that the shooter was wearing body armor. It seems to me that people who commit these types of crimes are men (generally) on a mission, and nothing is going to stop them. They aren't releasing a lot of details... I'm guessing they want to get the facts straight before trying to piece together what actually happened. I heard (again on NPR) that he had 9mm weapons, two, with multiple clips that held a shit ton of ammo. But that may change, just an initial report.

(December 14, 2012 at 3:17 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(December 14, 2012 at 2:30 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Why is it we never hear about mass shootings in European countries?

Because you don't pay attention?

Edit: Actually I looked it up, of the 15 worst school shootings in the last 30 years, 5 were in Europe and only 3 were in the United States. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ram..._massacres

Ok asshat, because you /had/ to go cherry picking, here we go!

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ram..._massacres
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ram...:_Americas
3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ram...rs:_Europe


Source 1 has these properties:
- Ranked by number of kills:
The United States: 5 out the top 10 by deaths
Germany: 2 of the top 10 in deaths
- Ranked by instances since year 2000
-- China is at top, with 16 of the 36 instances
-- United States is 8/36 instances
-- the rest start being divided between Germany, Finland, Israel, Brazil, etc

Source 2 properties:
- #1 rampage takes place in Bogota, Colombia
- United States occurs in over >50% of the rampages
- Sorted by year, the United States occupies over last 10 years: 19 of 23. Yes, 19 of the rampages of 23 since 2000 were UNITED STATES.

Source 3 properties:
- sorted by year, there are 16 rampages since 2000. Russia has 3, Germany, UK, France and Switzerland vie for 2 instances each.
- There is no clear European country that is prone to gun violence (which is bizarre, considering Russia is a huge fucking place. expected it to be higher)
- Number of deaths over the 16 is lesser than number of deaths in the US by gun rampages.

Conclusion => You're wrong.

Finally, let's take YOUR source:

1. Kehoe, Andrew Philip, 55 May 18 1927 Bath Township, MI U.S. 44 58 FME Committed suicide
2. Cho, Seung-Hui, 23 April 16 2007 Blacksburg, VA U.S. 32 17 F Committed suicide
3. Lanza, Adam. Dec. 14 2012 Newtown, CT U.S. 27 3 F Committed suicide
4. Hamilton, Thomas Watt, 43 March 13 1996 Dunblane U.K. 17 13-15 F Committed suicide
5. Steinhäuser, Robert, 19 April 26 2002 Erfurt Germany 16 1 F Committed suicide
6. Whitman, Charles Joseph, 25 July 31 /August 1 1966 Austin, TX U.S. 15 32 FM Shot by police, Killed an unborn child
7. Kretschmer, Tim, 17 March 11 2009 Winnenden & Wendlingen Germany 15 9-13 F Committed suicide
8. Lépine, Marc, 25 Dec. 6 1989 Montreal Canada 14 14 FM Committed suicide
9. Harris, Eric David, 18, Klebold, Dylan Bennet, 17 April 20 1999 Columbine, CO U.S. 13 21 F E Both committed suicide
10. Gadirov, Farda, 28 April 30 2009 Baku Azerbaijan 12 13 F Committed suicide [59]
11. Menezes de Oliveira, Wellington, 23 April 7 2011 Rio de Janeiro Brazil 12 12 F Committed suicide
12. Bai Ningyang, 18 May 8 2006 Shiguan China 12 5 MA Sentenced to death
13. Seifert, Walter, 42 June 11 1964 Volkhoven Germany 10 22 FM Committed suicide
14. Saari, Matti Juhani, 22 Sep. 23 2008 Kauhajoki Finland 10 1-3 F A Committed suicide
15. Wu Huanming, 47 May 12 2010 Linchang China 9 11 M Committed suicide

Analysis:
5 of the so-called cited school massacres of 15 are United States.
6 of 15 are in the North Americas (It is not fair to compare the whole of Europe to just the United States, FYI)
5 of 15 are in Europe, of which 1 is in the U.K. (sometimes not considered part of Europe, except in this analysis)
1 in Middle East
2 in Asia
1 in South Americas.

So, CapnAwesome, you must /truly/ be American, if the laziness of stereotypes can be trusted. Because you're own claimed information is crap to implying what you meant. Instead, it actually indicates that the United States, on the whole of North Americas, can lay claim to school massacres. Canada can't even compete, and it is a significant land mass nearby.

---

(December 14, 2012 at 5:28 pm)Shell B Wrote: At the risk of feeding this horribly timed argument, I must point out that one could make enough explosives to have killed many, many more people with far less hassle than buying a gun. Furthermore, you can make a deadly chemical gas with what is in my bathroom right now. That's just the reality of it. You can kill people with very little and kill a lot of people at that.

I'm ashamed of myself for contributing. Damn.

nope, you're also horribly wrong.

Leave it to educated people to know jack shit about the FBI/NSA and it's techniques to tracing materials used to create explosives.

Explosives that can be made easily in bulk through common house hold items are actually tracked and logged. When a person of interest purchases enough within an unusual interval, they flag themselves to the FBI and NSA for further investigation.

Given the estimates that the FBI and NSA are still ten to thirty years ahead of the consumer market when it comes to numerical analysis (the biggest employer of mathematicians is the FBI btw), pattern analysis, et al, it would stand to reason that they're actively preventing that which you described.

All considered, the hardest bomb to predict via usage rates, a fertilizer bomb, can be tracked through noting the uptake of fertilizer across several locales and cross-indexing it to the distance possibly covered by a set of one to few individuals operating in a cell mentality.

Once again, this is mathematics land, but not impossible to do.

Storytime:
I had a good hour to deal with one of the former heads of the NSA at a function in Washington D.C. Everything I postulated at as a question of "hiding" a bad guy was met with a near dismissive algorithmic and terse-to-the-point-of-uselessness description of how to monitor the environment to catch him.

I gave up when he started staring at me after a while and began writing my name into a notepad.

My dad asked me later why was I trying so hard to be recruited by them. I wasn't.

End Story time.

On an off note, I've often wondered how often the security agencies actively seek out people who would create explosives, furnish them with enough and then bust them.

Quote:"The majority of gun owners are responsible"

Yes. In this case the guns belonged to his very responsible mother....who was killed with one of them.

Even "responsible" people do not seem to know how to "responsibly" secure their weapons from those less "responsible."

(December 14, 2012 at 7:47 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: nope, you're also horribly wrong.

You're prematurely assertive.

Quote:Leave it to educated people to know jack shit about the FBI/NSA and it's techniques to tracing materials used to create explosives.

I'm not educated, but that's irrelevant here. I'm sorry, Moros, but I don't know what world you live in where legislation somehow translates to reality. Something simply being traced doesn't make it hard to obtain. Furthermore, if you are going to assure, you're going to have to provide proof that you know more than jack shit, not just run on the assumption that you know more.

Quote:Explosives that can be made easily in bulk through common house hold items are actually tracked and logged.

Really? I have never, ever once had my purchases tracked and logged. Common household items are common. That is the point. I could store hop for three fucking states and no one would even be mildly suspicious of me.

Quote:When a person of interest purchases enough within an unusual interval, they flag themselves to the FBI and NSA for further investigation.

How? Grocery stores are not linked to the FBI.

Quote:Given the estimates that the FBI and NSA are still ten to thirty years ahead of the consumer market when it comes to numerical analysis (the biggest employer of mathematicians is the FBI btw), pattern analysis, et al, it would stand to reason that they're actively preventing that which you described.

Explain how people still do it then, please. Every fucking meth lab in the country is a bomb waiting to go off. How is it still happening?

Quote:All considered, the hardest bomb to predict via usage rates, a fertilizer bomb, can be tracked through noting the uptake of fertilizer across several locales and cross-indexing it to the distance possibly covered by a set of one to few individuals operating in a cell mentality.

There is no fucking way in hell that is going to work in even most instances. At least with guns (and I'm not picking a side in that argument), they may be registered to someone. When was the last fucking time you had to provide your information to buy fertilizer. I could buy one bag of fertilizer from every farm in Massachusetts in a matter of days. Don't use a credit card. Wear a hat. It's one fucking bag. Nope. Sorry. Nope.

Quote:Once again, this is mathematics land, but not impossible to do.

No, no. It is not about what's possible. Most things are possible, I think. What matter is if it applies to reality as of right now. Like I said, people choose guns over other easier methods (maybe said that part in another thread). However, those easier methods are still easier and nothing you have said makes it sound any different. "They can and might use math to get you if you don't have half the brains of an average adult." does not mean "They catch most people who try to make bombs by superior detection skills that you do not possess, oh puny laymen."

Quote:On an off note, I've often wondered how often the security agencies actively seek out people who would create explosives, furnish them with enough and then bust them.

Bombs go off all the time. Homemade bombs. I hope they aren't furnishing those explosives.

It's time for Creed of Middle Ground to speak.

Avatar set:

Ok. If you're against gun ownership because you think making them illegal will do a damn thing, I will be more than happy to take you on a tour of each and every last street in Washington, D.C. (as the nation's capital is the 5th worst city in the entire nation for violent crime, and yet gun ownership is illegal for anyone who isn't serving in law enforcement or the military) where you can easily purchase a standard 9mm handgun in decent-to-excellent condition for the bargain price of $20, and where you can also purchase five 13-round magazines for an additional $20.

Why am I so familiar with this? Because I used to live on those streets, and I purchased one of these guns and this amount of ammunition. This was 10 years ago. However, gun control laws have not changed there [certainly have not relaxed], the city's ranking has remained steady in crime, and I have no reason to believe anything has changed...especially since I was there a few years ago and, well...nothing had changed.

People who want to kill someone else, or many other people, are always going to be able to procure a firearm with ridiculous ease.

But let's say I was there, at the school, when the shooting occurred. I am very proficient with firearms; I have scored higher in marksmanship proficiency than Marines, army personnel, some of whom [all the marines] were certified marksmen, and a couple of whom were certified sharpshooters. Let us say I had a carry-conceal permit, and my .45-caliber M1911.

I cannot PROMISE that I could have stopped him from killing anyone. But I CAN promise he wouldn't have killed nearly so many before I drew a bead on his head. And he might've shot me to death when he saw me draw the firearm. But I could have stopped him all the same.

All it takes for the victory of evil is for good men to do nothing...or for good men to be incapable of doing anything. If the school had armed security guards, maybe this wouldn't have happened at all.

Maybe. Maybe maybe maybe. Lots of maybes.

Fat lot of good those maybes do now.

Creed of Heresy mode: GO

Nothing changes the fact that these teachers and these children are dead. You can point the finger of blame at guns if you REALLY feel the need...but given that in place of guns people can wield knives or, worse, explosives [which can be crafted by anyone with access to the internet and a hundred dollars of cleaning chemicals], you guys are going to have to forgive me when I point the unshaking finger of blame with the sadistic piece of shit psychopathic dickhead that just ended 26 fucking lives way, WAY the fuck before their time! ._.

Tell me how hard it is going to be killing 26 people if you had a billy club compared to glocks with high capacity magazines?

There is a degree of ease of access that makes a criminal go through more or less effort.

More effort usually means they have a higher chance of blowing their cover and being caught, sometimes even preemptively.

(December 15, 2012 at 4:58 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Tell me how hard it is going to be killing 26 people if you had a billy club compared to glocks with high capacity magazines?

There is a degree of ease of access that makes a criminal go through more or less effort.

More effort usually means they have a higher chance of blowing their cover and being caught, sometimes even preemptively.

Well, my M9 Beretta, the sidearm issued to US military personnel but also available commercially, which was purchased by me [my brother technically paid for it, but I had to buy it and register for ownership within the state of Virginia [I was intending to buy a second later, but that did not happen; in the state of Virginia you don't need a permit to own, but you DO need a permit to buy more than one per month; this MAY have changed, however, since this was six years ago], and I had to get a permit to carry-conceal.

It took me two hours to get through the paperwork, and an additional three days for the information to go through so I could make my purchase.

I managed to purchase my Lupara [a double-sawed-off-barrel shotgun, in poor condition upon purchase but has since been refurbished to like-new condition] on the streets of DC a few years prior for $60 [my older Glock, long since having been scrapped, was the one purchased for $20] within an hour and a half.

If you want to kill a weed, you don't chop off the stem, you kill the root. You want to stop the murders, stop the hate and treat the mentally ill. Yes, we as a society are trying to do both. Maybe we need to try harder. Or resign ourselves to the fact that is inevitable if we really can't do that, though it should outrage and distress us no less when it happens.

Also, to answer your question, it might be trickier to kill 26 people with, say, a Bowie, before the cops show up. Unless you corner the poor children in a room and start shanking...and, really, I'd rather be shot to death than stabbed to death. Or he could have used the internet to learn how to make a homemade mini-crossbow, which with a couple hours of effort can be used to fire crochets fast enough and rapidly enough to be just as lethal as a gun.

You take away guns, people are going to use knives or crossbows or a fucking bottle of draino with tin foil and hydrochloric acid in it.

---

I should point out that I am NOT saying that you are wrong in your assessment, Moros, though it might seem as such that I am. But I AM saying that a gun in the hands a bad person it does not make. How many millions of gun owners in the US, and we get around 12,000 shooting deaths in the US [the actual count is like 30,000 but 2,000 are self-defense/law-enforcement and around 16,000 are suicides by firearm; goes without saying that a suicide isn't going to be stopped if firearms are not available]. Yes, there is an element of difficulty involved, but we have a problem with crime in this country, too; the government saying "no guns for anyone ever!" is not going to stop people with criminal intent from procuring one, is all I am saying. And as a person who otherwise abides the law, I'd like some form of self defense readily available to me beyond just my fists or a switchblade if someone with an illegally procured assault rifle starts shooting up the mall I'm shopping for video games and Taco Bell in, get me?

(December 15, 2012 at 4:58 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Tell me how hard it is going to be killing 26 people if you had a billy club compared to glocks with high capacity magazines?

There is a degree of ease of access that makes a criminal go through more or less effort.

More effort usually means they have a higher chance of blowing their cover and being caught, sometimes even preemptively.

We completely agree. I do think it should be a pain in the ass to get a gun, just not impossible. Perhaps forcing gun owners to have the people they live with screened as well? Random gun safety inspections from local law enforcement? There are many ways to make guns safer without eliminating their availability. I don't think it will stop people from killing each other en masse, but it would make sense anyway.