(December 19, 2012 at 2:08 am)clemdog14 Wrote:

Quote:you believe that you "rationally" believe in a god. This is not rational. It's not even reasoned.
If there was honesty in this quote, then I would say you're on your way to clear thought on the subject. You have to drop the views and unproven claims first, though.

You are right. It is not rational for me to believe in God. I have to abandon reason in order to have faith in God. As Kierkegaard would say, faith is an absurdity, yet I still cling to it.

Really clemdog14?

Thinking that God exists is entirely rational for me.

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I dont suppose you could put up the Kierkegaard ''faith is an absurdity'' quote in full could you?
I dont remember it.

Quote:Thinking that God exists is entirely rational for me.

Hm. I did not mean to entirely relay that I do not have rational reasons for believing in God. In context I was addressing, I was relaying that in certain situations I have to abandon reason in order to have faith.

Quote:Granted, I will use reason throughout my life because God has given me a brain and rationality so that I can cross a street based on evidence. It's just interesting that I have faith in certain situations but not all.

(December 19, 2012 at 10:35 pm)clemdog14 Wrote: I admire reason, I respect it, but sometimes it falters on many levels.

Reason doesn't; the misuse of it does.

clemdog14 Wrote:Granted, I will use reason throughout my life because God has given me a brain and rationality so that I can cross a street based on evidence. It's just interesting that I have faith in certain situations but not all.

Galileo has some food for thought for you:

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended for us to forego their use.

It sounds like you're close to finding the light at the end of the tunnel if you so comfortably accept what you've said.

clemdog14 Wrote:I admire reason, I respect it, but sometimes it falters on many levels.

How so?

(December 19, 2012 at 10:35 pm)clemdog14 Wrote: Seems like you are presupposing a lot of "givens" based on my responses.

What 'givens' in particular am I presupposing?

Quote: I admire reason, I respect it, but sometimes it falters on many levels.

How exactly does it falter?

Is one of the times it falters when it disagrees with your faith based beliefs?

(December 20, 2012 at 12:58 am)Lion IRC Wrote:

(December 19, 2012 at 2:08 am)clemdog14 Wrote: You are right. It is not rational for me to believe in God. I have to abandon reason in order to have faith in God. As Kierkegaard would say, faith is an absurdity, yet I still cling to it.

Really clemdog14?

Thinking that God exists is entirely rational for me.

---

I dont suppose you could put up the Kierkegaard ''faith is an absurdity'' quote in full could you?
I dont remember it.

We don't give one flying fuck if you THINK a god existing is rational. Muslims think belief in Allah is rational. Mormons think they will get their own planet as individuals after they die. Some idiots think Ouija boards work. Some people think the moon landing is fake, and every single one of them ALSO thinks what they believe is rational.

What you don't have is the same thing all those I mentioned above dont have, EVIDENCE!

What you all have in common however, is your vivid imaginations.

There is no such thing as virgin births or godsperm. Human flesh has NEVER survived permanent death(meaning death after irreversible tissue damage) and magically rose from the dead. In laypersons terms there is no such thing as a zombie god(flesh or spirit).

The bible is a book of myth, and so are the Jewish texts and so is the Koran, just like the reg vedas. Just like the book of Mormon. Just like Scientology.

Humans love superstition because it is easier than actually thinking.

(December 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(December 20, 2012 at 12:58 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Really clemdog14?

Thinking that God exists is entirely rational for me.

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I dont suppose you could put up the Kierkegaard ''faith is an absurdity'' quote in full could you?
I dont remember it.

We don't give one flying fuck if you THINK a god existing is rational.

In that case, why bother even typing a reply to this post?

(December 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Muslims think belief in Allah is rational. Mormons think they will get their own planet as individuals after they die. Some idiots think Ouija boards work. Some people think the moon landing is fake, and every single one of them ALSO thinks what they believe is rational.

What is that to you? They have REASONS for thinking such.

If they are partly or wholly right or wrong they nonetheless have REASONS for thinking as they do. It is entirely RATIONAL to hold a (tentative) hypothesis even if it is based on weak evidence
...especially in the absence of persuasive evidence to the contrary.

And the Ouiji board folk arent going to be persuaded they are wrong by your unsupported atheist special pleading and your ''dont give a FF'' apathy.

(December 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm)Brian37 Wrote: What you don't have is the same thing all those I mentioned above dont have, EVIDENCE!

I have all the evidence I need thanks. I'm doing fine. Thanks for your concern.

Now, I'm aware that there are some skeptical people who dont accept hearsay evidence, wont believe their own eyes, wont believe their parents, wont believe what they read in the newspapers, arent persuaded by argumentum ad populam considerations, etc etc. And I'm not saying they are insane or deluded or irrational.

...but if they are so desperately intent on thinking that the moon landing was fake, then sooner or later you have to shrug and move on.

(December 20, 2012 at 1:13 am)clemdog14 Wrote:

Quote:Thinking that God exists is entirely rational for me.

Hm. I did not mean to entirely relay that I do not have rational reasons for believing in God. In context I was addressing, I was relaying that in certain situations I have to abandon reason in order to have faith.

Quote:Granted, I will use reason throughout my life because God has given me a brain and rationality so that I can cross a street based on evidence. It's just interesting that I have faith in certain situations but not all.

Right, you have to suspend your skepticism much like you do with a stage magician. The honest ones admit it is an illusion, but for a long time they were snake oil salesmen out to convince you that it was more than a trick.

That same lack of skepticism allows people to fall for sidewalk scams like fake jewlery, or 3 cups and a ball, or tarrot cards, or "mediums" who "talk to the dead".

But it is rare that we hear a theist admit that they have to "abandon reason". That admission is the first step to the road to recovery.

Our question to you now, now that you admit you have to "abandon reason", is WHY, not what you believe, but WHY you feel you need to "abandon reason".

You don't abandon reason when it comes to the gods you already and rightfully reject. We'd suggest to you that you use that same reason and aim it at your own claims.

Otherwise, just like wanting to "believe" that woman was really sawed in half, you damned sure know she wasn't, but pretend she was because the illusion is fun. Deity belief operates because of lack of reason, not because of it.

God belief ALL GOD BELIEF, polytheism and monotheism is nothing more than a mental illusion you like because the idea sounds nice.

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(December 20, 2012 at 8:00 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(December 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm)Brian37 Wrote: We don't give one flying fuck if you THINK a god existing is rational.

In that case, why bother even typing a reply to this post?

(December 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Muslims think belief in Allah is rational. Mormons think they will get their own planet as individuals after they die. Some idiots think Ouija boards work. Some people think the moon landing is fake, and every single one of them ALSO thinks what they believe is rational.

What is that to you? They have REASONS for thinking such.

If they are partly or wholly right or wrong they nonetheless have REASONS for thinking as they do. It is entirely RATIONAL to hold a (tentative) hypothesis even if it is based on weak evidence
...especially in the absence of persuasive evidence to the contrary.

And the Ouiji board folk arent going to be persuaded they are wrong by your unsupported atheist special pleading and your ''dont give a FF'' apathy.

(December 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm)Brian37 Wrote: What you don't have is the same thing all those I mentioned above dont have, EVIDENCE!

I have all the evidence I need thanks. I'm doing fine. Thanks for your concern.

Now, I'm aware that there are some skeptical people who dont accept hearsay evidence, wont believe their own eyes, wont believe their parents, wont believe what they read in the newspapers, arent persuaded by argumentum ad populam considerations, etc etc. And I'm not saying they are insane or deluded or irrational.

...but if they are so desperately intent on thinking that the moon landing was fake, then sooner or later you have to shrug and move on.

Oh how self centered of you, you think we think we are going to nessarly convince you? No, while more often than not dense people like you will coninue wallowing in your delusion, someone not so stuck in theirs might read this and learn from it, unlike you.

It does happen. Maybe it wont convince you, skeptics have a duty to truth to keep delusion from infecting more people and help others get free from it.

So when I say "I don't give a fuck" I am showing other people that they DONT have to follow social norms just because it "sounds nice". Your claims are NOT special. You want them to be special, but you know what claims are like and everyone has one.

So it simply amounts to "if ifs and butts were candy and nuts we'd all have a party" You believe in a god, big whoopty shit. Hardly new in human history and hardly original.

I don't give a fuck about what god you claim. I do give a fuck that people sell all sorts of bullshit claims without evidence.

(December 20, 2012 at 1:13 am)clemdog14 Wrote: Hm. I did not mean to entirely relay that I do not have rational reasons for believing in God. In context I was addressing, I was relaying that in certain situations I have to abandon reason in order to have faith.

I would like to find the dirty snake-oil salesmen who got you to accept this horrible idea, lock him up, and throw away the key.