Darwinian the Great wrote Wrote:If he really does exist and wants to have a personal relationship with us all then why does he not just come and say hello?

I wish I could tell you , I do believe it is somewhere in the freewill/spiritual growth domain, and of course as you know being a Christian I believe he has in the person of Jesus Christ and will do again to finish the conversation. I also believe he does but we often don't recognize it as such. Reminds me of the story of the old guy in the flood who heard on the radio that the flood was coming and should leave his house but didn't saying God will save me, same again when the neighbours came and the water was lapping round his doorstep, and again when the national service came with a boat and again when the army sent a helicopter. When he dies he is angry with God and says why didn,t you save me and God just smiled and said i let you hear the radio warning, sent your neighbours, the national service, the army so in the end I decided we needed a little talk.

We need to be open to God who on the whole chooses to operate in a way I don't understand so I understand why other who don't believe understand even less. I don't blame them or believe they are stupid because of this, just not in the same place as me.

(December 31, 2012 at 1:19 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote:

I Wrote Wrote:If he really does exist and wants to have a personal relationship with us all then why does he not just come and say hello?

I wish I could tell you , I do believe it is somewhere in the freewill/spiritual growth domain, and of course as you know being a Christian I believe he has in the person of Jesus Christ and will do again to finish the conversation. I also believe he does but we often don't recognize it as such. Reminds me of the story of the old guy in the flood who heard on the radio that the flood was coming and should leave his house but didn't saying God will save me, same again when the neighbours came and the water was lapping round his doorstep, and again when the national service came with a boat and again when the army sent a helicopter. When he dies he is angry with God and says why didn,t you save me and God just smiled and said i let you hear the radio warning, sent your neighbours, the national service, the army so in the end I decided we needed a little talk.

We need to be open to God who on the whole chooses to operate in a way I don't understand so I understand why other who don't believe understand even less. I don't blame them or believe they are stupid because of this, just not in the same place as me.

Rather than go through all these mental gymnastics isn't it just simpler and more logical to assume that he doesn't come and say hello because he doesn't exist?

Darwnian wrote Wrote:Rather than go through all these mental gymnastics isn't just simpler and more logical to assume that he doesn't come and say hello because he doesn't exist?

Yes is the short answer, but consider this, why bother as scientists trying to find the answer to the origin of life the universe and everything when our experience so far seems to lead us just onward to an infinity of causality which means we can never get an answer. Would it not be a simpler and more logical approach to just accept a start does not exist so why go through mental gymnastics about dimensions on dimensions. Have you ever heard of the square root of 1. According to mathematics it doesn't exist, its called in maths an imaginary number. But so much physics is explained by use of this imaginary number.

(December 31, 2012 at 1:44 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote:

Darwnian wrote Wrote:Rather than go through all these mental gymnastics isn't just simpler and more logical to assume that he doesn't come and say hello because he doesn't exist?

Yes is the short answer, but consider this, why bother as scientists trying to find the answer to the origin of life the universe and everything when our experience so far seems to lead us just onward to an infinity of causality which means we can never get an answer. Would it not be a simpler and more logical approach to just accept a start does not exist so why go through mental gymnastics about dimensions on dimensions. Have you ever heard of the square root of 1. According to mathematics it doesn't exist, its called in maths an imaginary number. But so much physics is explained by use of this imaginary number.

I could be wrong but that's not how 'science' (not homogenous) works.

Science doesn't start with a conclusion and work backwards to prove it. It starts with a hypothesis and follows the evidence where it leads (either to support or disagree with it).

"I don't know" is the more reasonable and logical response to any question one doesn't actually know the answer to. Science is a tool we use to explore further and further into the unknown. If the answer to question 1 is 1000 other questions, then so be it. That's the 'magic' of science.

(December 31, 2012 at 1:44 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote:

Darwnian wrote Wrote:Rather than go through all these mental gymnastics isn't just simpler and more logical to assume that he doesn't come and say hello because he doesn't exist?

Yes is the short answer, but consider this, why bother as scientists trying to find the answer to the origin of life the universe and everything when our experience so far seems to lead us just onward to an infinity of causality which means we can never get an answer. Would it not be a simpler and more logical approach to just accept a start does not exist so why go through mental gymnastics about dimensions on dimensions. Have you ever heard of the square root of 1. According to mathematics it doesn't exist, its called in maths an imaginary number. But so much physics is explained by use of this imaginary number.

Because humans are intensely curious about the universe around them which is why religion is such an unsatisfactory dead end.

Darwinian Wrote:Because humans are intensely curious about the universe around them which is why religion is such an unsatisfactory dead end.

True and I would hope scientists keep exploring the universe as through this exploration we grow in understanding but far than being a dead end , real religion goes further than science and asks is there anything beyond our Cosmos and just as science needs to develop new tools and maths to explore further. The exploration of beyond the cosmos needs a different set of tools than our right sided brain offers.

(December 31, 2012 at 2:03 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote:

Darwinian Wrote:Because humans are intensely curious about the universe around them which is why religion is such an unsatisfactory dead end.

True and I would hope scientists keep exploring the universe as through this exploration we grow in understanding but far than being a dead end , real religion goes further than science and asks is there anything beyond our Cosmos and just as science needs to develop new tools and maths to explore further. The exploration of beyond the cosmos needs a different set of tools than our right sided brain offers.

But religion also gives you answers and then expects you to believe them on pain of eternal damnation.

I could be wrong but that's not how 'science' (not homogenous) works.

Science doesn't start with a conclusion and work backwards to prove it. It starts with a hypothesis and follows the evidence where it leads (either to support or disagree with it).

"I don't know" is the more reasonable and logical response to any question one doesn't actually know the answer to. Science is a tool we use to explore further and further into the unknown. If the answer to question 1 is 1000 other questions, then so be it. That's the 'magic' of science.
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Well that's how science is supposed to work but in reality its not; just try and get funding to research for non current medical beliefs on curing cancer. Its called Paradigm Shift if science worked the scientific method properly as you outlined i'm quite sure we would be beyond the pill popping chop it out stage in medicine by now. But theres money in pills as ther is money in fossil fuels so why change.

(December 31, 2012 at 2:03 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: True and I would hope scientists keep exploring the universe as through this exploration we grow in understanding but far than being a dead end , real religion goes further than science and asks is there anything beyond our Cosmos and just as science needs to develop new tools and maths to explore further. The exploration of beyond the cosmos needs a different set of tools than our right sided brain offers.

Shouldn't we be concerned with the square-bounds of the ever-changing universe first? Before speculating what's outside it? If there is an "inside/outside" to begin with?

Worrying about "what's out there" while ignoring observable phenomena and providing explanations and predictions for them first is not just unscientific, its also impractical, like constructing the roof of a house in mid-air before you've even laid down the foundations.