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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:37 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 1:39 pm by Simon Moon.)
(January 10, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I wish people would not keep telling me of the weakness of my position, I'm the only one standing in my position so I should know if its weak or not. From where I stand its perfectly strong and can withstand any assault, just because it breaks all the custom and practice rules does not weaken it.
That's because you don't actually know what constitutes a strong position.
I'm actually astounded that you believe that you consider your position strong, yet you are not able to (have you even tried?) to defend it. All I've seen by you is unsupported assertion after another. Then when we tell you that your assertions are unsupported, you claim that there are other tools for evaluating your claims.
Answer this. If a person claimed that they had invisible dragons living in his back yard, and he was unable to offer a shred of evidence or reasoned argument to support his claim, would you consider his position strong?
Why or why not?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:38 pm
(January 10, 2013 at 1:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 10, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I wish people would not keep telling me of the weakness of my position, I'm the only one standing in my position so I should know if its weak or not. From where I stand its perfectly strong and can withstand any assault, just because it breaks all the custom and practice rules does not weaken it. It hardly needs assualting, you haven't supported it in any way. It's DOA.
Quote: I don't excuse the idea for its supposed short coming but I wont accept that because your mindsets can't accept it somehow its weak.
It';s not weak because my mindset won't accept it, but because yours...that does...is incapable of supporting it.
Quote:When we discuss God we are dealing with a potentiality outside the cosmos,
Yet another bare assertion. Are you going to offer any support for this position? Of course not, but it hardly matters to me- because you're clearly mistaken. You're here, within the cosmos, imagining god, the god stories exists, here, in the cosmos.
Quote:where everything is either infinite or eternal and you are trying to say the laws and rules that function within our finite world, developed by intelligent apes, who have only existed for a blink in the age of the earth let alone the universe. The rules and structures that serve us well start to creak at the edges when we approach even the extremes in what we can try to understand and you never even consider that a different set of rules and approaches are needed beyond.
You're one of those intelligent apes, and that cuts both ways now doesn't it. Did you just tell me how things where beyond the cosmos? How would you know? Do you think that your god story is somehow excused for all the failings of these intelligent apes, with their short time here? I hardly think so. Case in point, your god story seems to emphasize our limitations and history very, very well. Beyond what? Beyond the beyond, in the gaps? This is appealing to ignorance, google it and enrich your understanding.
Quote:Scientist hate infinity because all rules go bonkers there so they continue to wait in hope for someone to get them out of the conundrum of the singularity. Still it does make for interesting new theories which can be entertained and discussed if scientists raise them....heres a new one on me..But an Indiana University professor has a new theory, reports New Scientist: We’re inside a black hole that exists in another universe. Specifically, a black hole that rebounded, somewhat like a spring.
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/20...ntist-says
All well and good, is this how you plan to support your position? It won't work.
Quote:I feel a little like the guy who leaves platos cave and comes back to find that rather than listen to the guy they have become so identified with world they have been imprisioned in that they find him a nuisance and could even become aggressive towards the one who challenges their reality.
Are you the guy who left? I'll be frank here, anyone who thinks that those who actually -did- dwell in caves answered some question about the fabric of our cosmos better than we can answer it today has no grounds to even imply that he has somehow stumbled upon knowledge or enlightenment. This is a sad joke.
My position needs no support; it is mine not yours, when you say mine needs support you are saying that I cannot move anyone here closer to my position and then when I seem to be unmoveable in mine you just say i'm unreasonable. There are different kinds of strengths as the americans are finding to their cost in Afghanistan, why wont those nasty taliban just come out and fight a proper war, why wont they follow proper rules well maybe its because they are not americans and don't think like americans. But as the Americans leave after winning the war the Taliban will just walk in ( i don't agree with the Taliban, just an example ). So just accept my position as I accept yours and just discuss whatever comes up.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:40 pm
Jesus fucking christ.............
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:43 pm
(January 10, 2013 at 1:37 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (January 10, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I wish people would not keep telling me of the weakness of my position, I'm the only one standing in my position so I should know if its weak or not. From where I stand its perfectly strong and can withstand any assault, just because it breaks all the custom and practice rules does not weaken it.
That's because you don't actually know what constitutes a strong position.
I'm actually astounded that you believe that you consider your position strong, yet you are not able to (have you even tried?) to defend it. All I've seen by you is unsupported assertion after another. Then when we tell you that your assertions are unsupported, you claim that there are other tools for evaluating your claims.
Answer this. If a person claimed that they had invisible dragons living in his back yard, and he was unable to offer a shred of evidence or reasoned argument to support his claim, would you consider his position strong?
Why or why not?
Well the obvious thing to do is ask him to take you to his back yard so you could see for yourself but im afraid in our case I can't have you walk in my backyard as my backyard is my life so we are at an impass. But it doesnt mean we cant discuss and it doesn't mean there isn't a flock of dragons in my backyard..
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:46 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Here we are, the heart of the trouble, in order to defend your assessment you have to blather on kindly about......flocks....of...dragons. Grow up?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm
(January 10, 2013 at 1:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Here we are, the heart of the trouble, in order to defend your assessment you have to blather on kindly about......flocks....of...dragons. Grow up.
I was responding to Simon and Dragons seems to be a word that raises temperatures less on this forum than others.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:48 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 1:53 pm by Simon Moon.)
(January 10, 2013 at 1:43 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Well the obvious thing to do is ask him to take you to his back yard so you could see for yourself but im afraid in our case I can't have you walk in my backyard as my backyard is my life so we are at an impass. But it doesnt mean we cant discuss and it doesn't mean there isn't a flock of dragons in my backyard..
The dragons are invisible, remember? A trip to his back yard would not disprove their existence.
The guy claiming there are invisible dragons, could constantly come up with the exact same kind of rationalizations that you use concerning us detecting your god.
"Oh, you can't rely on evidence or reasoned argument to detect the invisible dragons, you need to use the tools appropriate for detecting invisible dragons".
Problem solved, right?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:50 pm
(January 10, 2013 at 1:48 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (January 10, 2013 at 1:43 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Well the obvious thing to do is ask him to take you to his back yard so you could see for yourself but im afraid in our case I can't have you walk in my backyard as my backyard is my life so we are at an impass. But it doesnt mean we cant discuss and it doesn't mean there isn't a flock of dragons in my backyard..
The dragons are invisible, remember? A trip to his back yard would not disprove their existence.
The guy claiming there are invisible dragons, could constantly come up with the exact same kind of rationalizations that you can't detect the invisible dragons as you use.
"Oh, you can't rely on evidence or reasoned argument to detect the invisible dragons, you need to use the tools appropriate for detecting invisible dragons".
Problem solved, right? well answer still stands except of course as well as the dragons I might find the tools for detecting them that the guy had as well.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 1:59 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 2:02 pm by Simon Moon.)
Disregard this post.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 10, 2013 at 2:03 pm
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2013 at 2:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 10, 2013 at 1:50 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: well answer still stands except of course as well as the dragons I might find the tools for detecting them that the guy had as well. So you might find the tools to detect these dragons, that's possible.....but god-.......no, that's off limits, impossible. 
A clearer demonstration of your wish thinking and bias could not be asked for.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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