(January 15, 2013 at 7:51 am)paulpablo Wrote: To be fair on muslimguy he did say he didnt know if they are or not unless they commited shirk.
I find it strange that islam says every other sin might be forgiven except giving god a partner. but thats how it is for them.

I don't think it's necessary to "be fair" on someone that has no problem with admitting his own relatives may currently be being punished in hellfire because they didn't know as much as he believes he does about Islam.

ThatMuslimGuy said committing shirk was worthy of punishment in the afterlife. It's not really a matter of, "well that's how it is for them". People die over having conflicting beliefs in Islamic countries. People still end up behind bars or worse for apostasy or blasphemy.

I spent a lot of time on an Ex-Muslim forum (the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain). They're not a very well-known organisation because of the taboo, intimidation and threats associated with leaving Islam. I think when people learn about the stories of former Muslims who haven't spoken to their parents or family in years, or former Muslims who had to claim asylum, live in fear, get beaten for being "too Western", then it becomes very hard to just turn the other cheek and say that this is just how they believe.

Oh i know in reality people in muslim countries throw acid in womens faces for not wearing the correct clothing or at least beat them.
I know theres terrorism against different muslim sects and towards jews and christians and ridiculously oppresive rules against women.
But you cant argue with them on that level because they will just say "these people arent muslims because none of that is in the quran" and if you find a verse where it is in the quran they will say "these words dont mean what you think you cant speak arabic"
So i always find it better to pin them down to something they cant argue against, i mean thats just my way of doing things, i completely understand what you mean though about the horrifying results of islam.

To answer your question even though I am obviously not a Muslim, there is a belief in Islam that in fact we are all born as Muslims.

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

http://www.islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm

The absurdity of this should be apparent even to Muslims, but the words of Muhammad (shit be upon him) are considered infallible. Thus it's actually doctrine that everybody is born as a Muslim. Ha, another part of the religion that is so obviously garbage.

(January 15, 2013 at 2:41 am)Ari Wrote:

(January 14, 2013 at 4:29 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: I can neither know nor comment on if they are in heaven or hell. As only Allah knows. Allah is the Most Merciful and The Forgiving so can choose to forgive any sin he wishes apart from the sin of shirk. Which is unforgiveable if a person dies in state of shirk. If my ancestors died in a state of Shirk. Then yes they are most likely in the hell-fire. But i can not comment on there deeds or there beliefs as i don't know.

If they are in Paradise. Then no. If they are in the Hellfire then they will be being punished.

What a disgusting thing to say.

Your ancestors probably knew very little about Islam (let's face it, it wasn't a very widely understood religion in the Western world just fifty years ago). To tell rational, open-minded people here that you believe your deceased ancestors, friends or family would be burning in eternal hellfire because they don't subscribe to your particular outlook on life is precisely why people have a problem with organised religion.

What is perhaps most laughable of all is that you said so yourself numerous times that you do not understand enough about Islam, in fact, you even said that Islam (or, the Koran/Hadiths) must be understood through the Arabic language which you do not speak. If you admittedly do not know all of the answers about your religion, let alone the afterlife, it's more than disappointing to jump to a conclusion of, "yes, they're burning in hellfire". The only thing worse than dogmatic belief, is people who believe and apply that dogma to those around them in a negative way whilst admitting they don't understand their religion. That sets a laughable precedent.

He asked me a question i answered. I see no dogma. I answered the question with my current understanding.
Well in the case of that they never heard about Islam. Then they will be given a test on the day of resurrection.

"What is the ruling of the person who dies before receiving the call to Islam?

Answer
All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

Allaah The Ever-Merciful would not punish any of His slaves who did not receive His message through the Messengers. Allaah The Almighty Says (what means):

• {Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.} [Quran 17:15]

There are numerous verses that have the same meaning. They all indicate that Allaah The Almighty would not admit anyone into Hell until He has sent him a Messenger. Allaah The Almighty would never torture anyone unless He had sent him a Messenger to guide him to the right path, forbid him from deviation and inform him of Islam and its Sharee‘ah. The person would then not be able to plead ignorance. This applies to the time of the Prophet, sallaallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam , as well as after him. Anyone who has not heard the message of the Prophet, sallaallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, regardless of where he lives, would have the same ruling of Ahl Al-Fatrah (those who did not receive the message).

It was mentioned in a Hadeeth that these people will be tested on the Day of Judgment itself. The Prophet, sallaallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, mentioned that four people would be excused on the Day of Judgment: the deaf, the insane, the senile and a person of Ahl Al-Fatrah. They will argue that they did not believe because they were not sent any Messengers. They will pledge obedience to Allaah The Almighty and He will order them to enter the Fire; if they obey Him, that fire will be cool and peaceful for them. [Ahmad]

However, anyone who heard the message of the Prophet , and did not believe in it will have no excuse. It was narrated that the Prophet , swore by Allaah The Almighty that any Jew or Christian who knows about his message and does not believe until his death will be among the dwellers of Hell.

Allaah Knows best."


"Allah never sends his wrath on any one until He gives evidence to prove him guilty. Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {…And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).}[17: 15]. The meaning of “giving evidence” against disbelievers here is that the message of Allah reaches them and they get to realize its existence."

So i will rephrase. If they never heard of Islam. They will receive there test on the day of judgement.

As i don't know any of this only Allah knows. And he is Most Merciful, The All Forgiving and The Most Just. His decision will be just and correct.

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(January 15, 2013 at 11:23 am)Ari Wrote:

(January 15, 2013 at 7:51 am)paulpablo Wrote: To be fair on muslimguy he did say he didnt know if they are or not unless they commited shirk.
I find it strange that islam says every other sin might be forgiven except giving god a partner. but thats how it is for them.

I don't think it's necessary to "be fair" on someone that has no problem with admitting his own relatives may currently be being punished in hellfire because they didn't know as much as he believes he does about Islam.

ThatMuslimGuy said committing shirk was worthy of punishment in the afterlife. It's not really a matter of, "well that's how it is for them". People die over having conflicting beliefs in Islamic countries. People still end up behind bars or worse for apostasy or blasphemy.

I spent a lot of time on an Ex-Muslim forum (the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain). They're not a very well-known organisation because of the taboo, intimidation and threats associated with leaving Islam. I think when people learn about the stories of former Muslims who haven't spoken to their parents or family in years, or former Muslims who had to claim asylum, live in fear, get beaten for being "too Western", then it becomes very hard to just turn the other cheek and say that this is just how they believe.

I never stated i had a problem with this. Don't you think it would be distressing? He asked me the for the answer. I gave it. It is prohibited to lie in Islam.

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(January 15, 2013 at 11:52 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: To answer your question even though I am obviously not a Muslim, there is a belief in Islam that in fact we are all born as Muslims.

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

http://www.islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm

The absurdity of this should be apparent even to Muslims, but the words of Muhammad (shit be upon him) are considered infallible. Thus it's actually doctrine that everybody is born as a Muslim. Ha, another part of the religion that is so obviously garbage.

What does the word Islam mean? To submit to the Will of Allah.

What does Muslim mean? One who submits to the will of Allah.

Everything is a Muslim as it submits to the will of Allah apart from Humans who have a test.

So when a child is born it submits to the will of Allah.

It isn't Muslim in the sense of its religious Practice. The child is Muslim in the sense that the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature and his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator.

I don't recall ever submitting to any will of any allah, nor do I recall any of my children (I have alot of them) ever being in this situation. Something is amiss. Are you an infant whisperer? I could use one.....

(January 16, 2013 at 2:36 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: What does the word Islam mean? To submit to the Will of Allah.

What does Muslim mean? One who submits to the will of Allah.

Everything is a Muslim as it submits to the will of Allah apart from Humans who have a test.

So when a child is born it submits to the will of Allah.

It isn't Muslim in the sense of its religious Practice. The child is Muslim in the sense that the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature and his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator.

It doesn't seem like that's what the original author meant. For one, if that's what he meant he would of just said that instead. I never understand when people give these explanations of what was really meant. Well if that was what was meant than what prevented Muhammad from just saying that? Nothing

The second reason that he meant in a religious sense is that he specifically said that it's their parents who make them Jews and Christians. This would imply that you don't need parents to make someone a Muslim, otherwise there would be no need to even bring it up. If that isn't the implication than he was just babbling pointlessly.

The whole "he meant this" line of bullshit is a way for people to disregard a literal reading (because they are well aware of the abject ignorance inherent in such a reading) while still feeling as though they are adhering to a literal reading Cap.......

This is important, because they want the heavenly reward (and to avoid the heavenly retribution) and so have to follow the heavenly rules - but they aren't willing to simply submit to what they know to be vacuous. Islam my ass. If those interested were serious and faithful about such submission there would be no need for qualifiers, modifiers, favorable readings or translations, or excuses. There it is in the black and white, it means what it says, and it went down exactly as it says it did.

(January 17, 2013 at 11:38 am)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(January 16, 2013 at 2:36 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: What does the word Islam mean? To submit to the Will of Allah.

What does Muslim mean? One who submits to the will of Allah.

Everything is a Muslim as it submits to the will of Allah apart from Humans who have a test.

So when a child is born it submits to the will of Allah.

It isn't Muslim in the sense of its religious Practice. The child is Muslim in the sense that the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature and his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator.

It doesn't seem like that's what the original author meant. For one, if that's what he meant he would of just said that instead. I never understand when people give these explanations of what was really meant. Well if that was what was meant than what prevented Muhammad from just saying that? Nothing

The second reason that he meant in a religious sense is that he specifically said that it's their parents who make them Jews and Christians. This would imply that you don't need parents to make someone a Muslim, otherwise there would be no need to even bring it up. If that isn't the implication than he was just babbling pointlessly.

I reread the Hadith. The word in question is Fitra. I don't feel confident enough to comment on the topic of fitra as i may present incorrect or false knowledge.

i have 2 more questions

I havent recieved warnings from any messengers i only have the teachings of muslim scholars who all argue and disagree with each other so am i off the hook? i wont go to hell because i havent recieved a messenger

why should blind people have to believe everything they hear in regards to allah and muhammed?

I duno have you received the message of Islam? To worship Allah and have no partners with him. To submit yourself to him? Have you read the Qur'an?

By blind people do you mean literally blind?