Firstly, Drich, thank you for answering my question. I understand now why, from your perspective, this is an important issue to clarify.

Secondly, I think it is important for you to remember that what you see as judgement of God is actually judgement of your willingness to self-deprecate by accepting a doctrine that relegates you to a being with such character flaws that you must beg your God not to send you to a tortuous realm for all eternity. It is judgement of your acceptance of a doctrine that says you were created specifically to fall short of a standard for which you must attone yourself, and the acceptance that you were created with absolutely no sovereignty over your own existence.

(January 23, 2013 at 2:18 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Firstly, Drich, thank you for answering my question. I understand now why, from your perspective, this is an important issue to clarify.

Secondly, I think it is important for you to remember that what you see as judgement of God is actually judgement of your willingness to self-deprecate by accepting a doctrine that relegates you to a being with such character flaws that you must beg your God not to send you to a tortuous realm for all eternity. It is judgement of your acceptance of a doctrine that says you were created specifically to fall short of a standard for which you must attone yourself, and the acceptance that you were created with absolutely no sovereignty over your own existence.

Your almost there.

Everything you have said is true, now instead of resting on your laurals about what you know, now ask why. Why were we designed to fall short. What does falling short do for us?

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(January 22, 2013 at 10:53 am)Darkstar Wrote: Wow, your spelling really is bad! It's only three letters! FSM = Flying Spaghetti Monster

I thought I asnwered this one.

Quote:False analogy. There is no time given in the instructions.

Accurate analogy. The time we have been told to "wait" (at the libary) is the breif span of time we have been given in this life. some have been given to wait longer than others. It is the waiting at Mcdonalds (where we want to wait) instead of waiting where God told us to wait, that places us in a position to not expect to meet up with god when He comes.

Quote:God obviously doesn't want me to believe in him. If he did, he would just will it to happen. Literally no effort for someone omnipotent.

Your right not all have it in them to love God. That is what this life is about. To proove this to yourself, so when you face eternal seperation you will know why you have been seperated.

Quote:Wrong McDonalds, huh? Ask, seek, knock is little more than a vaguely worded metaphor. How are we supposed to know what it means literally? It is deliberatley vague so anyone can just say
you're doing it wrong" if someone doesn't "find" god.

Oh the Irony..

It is vague so as to seperate wheat from chaff. If "wheat" does not understand because something is too vague. "Wheat" Asks a question, he seeks in the bible and he knocks by repeating this process till his question is answered.

Christ does not tell us this as a form of check list theology. Christ outlines a pattern of behaivor that a normal human being goes through when he is without something he desperatly needs, but believes it can be sourced from a given location. Look at the parable again. Was the guy in the story looking for, God? Or just Bread for a guest?? It was sheer desperation and full knoweledge that what he needed could be obtained if he just put the effort in to get his neighbor out of bed.

A/S/K can be applied to anything out heart is set on. It is this setting our hearts on God that makes A/S/K the time and place to meet up with God.

Drich Wrote:Your almost there.

Everything you have said is true, now instead of resting on your laurals about what you know, now ask why. Why were we designed to fall short. What does falling short do for us?

Nothing, because it's just a bunch of nonsense?

(BTW, if I truly believed I was "almost there," I would ask my loved ones to put a bullet in my head.)

Quote:Why were we designed to fall short. What does falling short do for us?

It apparently gives some of us a case of holy Stockholm Syndrome.

Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God.

We are programed to sin, or in other words we are programed to be outside the expressed will of God, and have been given the oppertunity to come back via a state of Grace through the attoning sacerfice of Christ. what does that mean? God gave us Choice. In order to have choice we must have viable unhendered ablity to choose and be met with the true consenquence of said choices otherwise the choices we make are moot. (Maybe mute too ) Which is the reason bad things happen to 'good people.' (that may not have directly made a bad choice but it does not mean some one did not sin against them) In short Sin is how 'free will' is accomplished. For if we are without sin their is only God's expressed will. If their is only the expressed will of God 'we' have no choice to do other than what God has told us, He wants done.

So through sin God has given us choice (even before their was knoweledge of sin their has always been the ablity to choose, as repersented by the tree of knoweledge in the Garden, and man's access to it.) that choice by default forces us outside God's expressed will. It is up to us to choose to return.
(as outlined in the story of the prodigal son.)

Side discussion: Free will is also the reason their can not be undenyable proof of God. Because undenyable proof ends our ablity to choose.

Quote:Side discussion: Free will is also the reason their can not be undenyable proof of God. Because undenyable proof ends our ablity to choose.

If you give me undeniable proof of god's existence, how does that remove from me the choice to do whatever I wish to do?

The reason there can't be undeniable proof is because the very idea is unfalsifiable.

Quote:Which is the reason bad things happen to 'good people.'

Many bad things which happen to good people are natural and are not influenced by human intent in any way.

Drich Wrote:Side discussion: Free will is also the reason their can not be undenyable proof of God. Because undenyable proof ends our ablity to choose.

So you have claimed before, but this still remains wholly incompatible with your belief that God showed you hell.

(January 23, 2013 at 11:25 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

Drich Wrote:Side discussion: Free will is also the reason their can not be undenyable proof of God. Because undenyable proof ends our ablity to choose.

So you have claimed before, but this still remains wholly incompatible with your belief that God showed you hell.

Can you deny my hell dream as being real? Kinda hard to be undeniable when people are doubting what is supposed to be undeniable.

Can you prove that it was God who showed it to you, and not simply a dream like any other?

(January 23, 2013 at 7:50 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

Quote:Side discussion: Free will is also the reason their can not be undenyable proof of God. Because undenyable proof ends our ablity to choose.

If you give me undeniable proof of god's existence, how does that remove from me the choice to do whatever I wish to do?

The reason there can't be undeniable proof is because the very idea is unfalsifiable.

Quote:Which is the reason bad things happen to 'good people.'

Many bad things which happen to good people are natural and are not influenced by human intent in any way.

If you know to be real without doubt, then you know everything He has told us would also be real without question. Salvation ceases to be about loving God, and becomes a matter of self preservation. Even if you resent God the knowledge of Him and your coming judgement would at the very least place on in a position "moral" justification (makes you a Luke warm Christian) which Christ condemns to hell.

The point of this life is to give you enough experience to make a clear decision in your heart as to who you are in relation to God. If God took away the cloud you are allowed to live in now by giving you the proof you claim you need, most would spend the next fifty years going through the motions of religion, just to wind up in hell to forever wonder what you were doing there. As it is God hides from us till we seek Him out. This allows us to know who we are in relation to God. So whatever we choose for ourselves we know why and what to expect, thus allowing us to accept our fate.

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(January 23, 2013 at 11:59 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Can you prove that it was God who showed it to you, and not simply a dream like any other?

What if God used a dream like anyother to show me? Why would all powerful God not be allowed to use common dreams to give revelations? the bible seems to think this is a legitimate avenue for God to use to communicate.