(February 17, 2013 at 8:53 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: I'm not avoiding the issue. Hell, this topic is purely addressing the issue. I've already said what I had to said about proof on the first couple of pages. You can read them, and we can debate from there.

The term is "Hades", not "hell". Hell isn't real...

The intrinsic problem with this argument is that if indeed your god is above our ability to measure, demonstrate, or even identify, then what grounds do you have to even say that it exists? If it's above our understanding, how do you even know that it's there?

(February 18, 2013 at 12:36 am)Question Mark Wrote: The intrinsic problem with this argument is that if indeed your god is above our ability to measure, demonstrate, or even identify, then what grounds do you have to even say that it exists? If it's above our understanding, how do you even know that it's there?

Furthermore, even if we were to allow it's existence for the sake of argument, by what basis could one claim to know anything about it?

At best, it would seem that such an argument could only support deism, and not theism.

(February 17, 2013 at 9:27 pm)catfish Wrote:

(February 17, 2013 at 8:53 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: I'm not avoiding the issue. Hell, this topic is purely addressing the issue. I've already said what I had to said about proof on the first couple of pages. You can read them, and we can debate from there.

The term is "Hades", not "hell". Hell isn't real...

Wikipedia Wrote:In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

It's a good thing that we've got someone with your expertise in the bible to straighten us out on such matters.

(February 18, 2013 at 6:20 am)apophenia Wrote: It's a good thing that we've got someone with your expertise in the bible to straighten us out on such matters.

Yes it is, lucky for you, huh?

Care to test your google skills?
.

(February 18, 2013 at 12:36 am)Question Mark Wrote: The intrinsic problem with this argument is that if indeed your god is above our ability to measure, demonstrate, or even identify, then what grounds do you have to even say that it exists? If it's above our understanding, how do you even know that it's there?

More to the point, if their god is beyond our ability to perceive how can they claim to know what it wants?

Ooh a challenge! Unfinished business get out clause alert.

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(February 18, 2013 at 12:36 am)Question Mark Wrote: The intrinsic problem with this argument is that if indeed your god is above our ability to measure, demonstrate, or even identify, then what grounds do you have to even say that it exists? If it's above our understanding, how do you even know that it's there?

You cannot identify it using the scientific method because it is supernatural: outside the bounds of science.

That it is beyond our understanding does not mean we know nothing about it. That would be a different description, like: "completely unknowable". <- Did you see that description in Christian literature anywhere? Me neither.

I don't recall any mention of God being outside of time and space, that he created time, anywhere in the Bible.

Frankly, I see no proof that God is supposed to be supernatural or beyond the capacity of humans to understand, and I furthermore see no proof that people living in Biblical times considered God to be outside of nature, hence why God is a constant, actively-interfering presence in their lives. The 'supernatural' element of God only starts to manifest when our understanding begins to chip away at natural explanations for God and theologians, refusing to understand that this means the whole thing was a silly lie, invent a safe haven for God that is intentionally nonsensical, so that God will always have at least one gap to exist in forever.

"Knowing" God was no concern of people who were far too ignorant to know how weather worked, or what shooting stars were, or what caused disease and famine, so they considered every example of these things to be direct intervention by their vengeful God. By the time the 18th century rolled around, our understanding of the world around us had matured to the point where learned minds thought of God as a being who made the universe, set it in motion, and left it alone except maybe for a few choice interventions, depending on who you asked. We knew enough about weather and astronomy to understand that there was a self-sustaining process at work. A hundred years or so later, we discovered that disease was caused not by angry sky daddies, but by tiny microbes (and, isn't it funny how the Bible makes absolutely no mention of the oldest and most abundant life forms on Earth?). Now, of course, the whole story is in danger because we're inching closer to figuring out how the universe really began, how life really began, and what makes the whole thing work. We've filled in so many gaps in which a natural God could exist that the modern theist will just place God outside nature, because realms of imaginary delusion are not subject to critical examination. For some reason, this is a notion which we are supposed to think of as plausible.

Then how do you know what it wants?

(February 17, 2013 at 9:27 pm)catfish Wrote: [quote='TheLameMayWalk' pid='402874' dateline='1361148785']
I'm not avoiding the issue. Hell, this topic is purely addressing the issue. I've already said what I had to said about proof on the first couple of pages. You can read them, and we can debate from there.

YOU asked for an intelligent conversation - but then you post things upon which YOU have no basis for argument.

GO back to the FIRST post on this thread

All you say is an additional UNSUPPORTED claim that a god is beyond proof and reason

I have no reason to believe that - None was given.

Now - for an intelligent argument

In the case of the xtian god - we can already say that the god - as defined by ALL of the claims of the scripture of that religion - CANNOT BE TRUE.

According to the fairy tale book - Matthew(19:26) and Luke (1:37) - Nothing is impossible with god - and that is NOT TRUE - All i need to do is provide I example of something a god cannot do to prove the point. Once I have done that - the bible is false.

Today - I am posting a message to you - something that I had NO knowledge I would do - two years ago. ANd you posted a message to ME - something YOU had no knowledge YOU would do two years ago as well.
The ability to do something that we had no prior knowledge of is an ability of ALL HUMANS.

NOW - what can your ALL KNOWING GOD do that IT had no prior knowledge of? YOU see - the claims contradict each other. WE both have a power that your god cannot have as defined.

So - in fact - the god does not have FREE WILL - it must do everything exactly as it already knows. It cannot do anything it has no knowledge of. And no one else can have free will - for the same reason. WE cannot choose to do something that the god DOES NOT KNOW - so we are limited to what the god ONLY KNOWS.

YOU may reply - that this is minor example - but it is NOT - FREE WILL is something that is important to the religion. Without it - the claim of responsibility is in question.

And this is only ONE example of a major problem with the claims of your god - and that is WHY we choose to accept that Gods are NOTHING MORE than fictional characters in MYTHS and LEGENDS mostly from ancient uneducated and unscientific people.