(February 19, 2013 at 2:46 pm)John V Wrote: No, peer review found it acceptable for publication. It was then shouted down in blogs and such.

Not trying to imply anything here, but you do know that peer review doesn't stop at publication. Indeed, many scientific discoveries that are later found wanting are frequently denounced post-publication, usually stemming from additional discoveries, but also when those doing the reviewing only heard about the study after it was published.

Another way to look at it is through twins studies. Studies have found that when one identical twin is gay, the other is gay at a higher percentage than in the general population. The numbers vary wildly - from 8% to 52% - but are above the general 2.5%. (The highest numbers are thought to be skewed by self-selection.) This indicates some amount of predisposition, but far short of determination.

Hm. I'm a woman. Perhaps you need a woman's view here.
What exactly, are you trying to say with your purported study?

Because from personal experience I can tell you that I was bi my entire life,
but only admitted to it in adulthood. Admitted it to myself, in adulthood. I have
yet to admit it to anyone besides myself and one other person, for good reason.
All of my families' and friends' suspicions would be confirmed and I simply don't want
to deal with that right now. I'm still ashamed of it, for some unknown reason. Mainly
because I don't want the girls I've hung out with my entire life, to think I was tricking
them somehow, because I'm not going to lie: I did enjoy the benefit of getting to see them
naked just because I was a girl.

I would call myself as being in denial. I knew I was bi deep down, but to hell if I
would admit that! Not only are we the procreating gender of the species, we're all
emotions. It's through sheer will that I denied myself indulgence of women,
but no matter how hard I tried or how wrong I thought it was (I was Christian!), I
would still kick myself every time I found myself looking at a girl more than a girl should.
I couldn't help it, it wasn't a choice. If it was a choice, then perhaps you could explain
to me how I had attraction to girls even before I knew what gay was? When I was a child
I literally had girlfriends. Come to find out in adulthood, they were bi too. But when we were
little we were Christian raised, and I honestly did not know what gay was until I was about 10yrs old.
Just because I didn't know what it was, doesn't denigrate the feelings or attractions that I had back then.
It wasn't until I was 17yrs old that I found out what Bi was.

Yes, I did live in a bubble, before you ask. I was homeschooled, went to Christian private schools, etc.

Once I finally figured out what I was, I didn't admit it for another 12yrs. Twelve years!
Come to think of it, my boyfriend at the Christian school: I always thought he was gay. He was my best friend, and knew more about clothes than me. Turns out he was gay. Poor guy had to deal with having a girlfriend just to dispel this horrible stigma at a Christian run school. I didn't mind much that he never kissed me, because I was more interested in the girls! It was just the way things had to be, so I could fit in with my environment. I fully believe that had I not had this stigmatizing sexuality complex, I wouldn't have even been interested in men at all. As it was, I had to acclimate myself to men over women out of sheer lack of choice, and in my teens I acquired my taste for men. I do like men. A lot, and actually way more. Just ask my fiancee. This doesn't change the fact that I like women too.


In conclusion, Mister John V, I think you need to re-examine your conclusions on the subject, not the other way around.
And just for the record, this is the first time I've blatantly said, any of this, to anyone. This is my coming out so to speak, and I'm 26!

(February 19, 2013 at 3:29 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Hm. I'm a woman. Perhaps you need a woman's view here.
What exactly, are you trying to say with your purported study?

Because from personal experience I can tell you that I was bi my entire life,
but only admitted to it in adulthood. Admitted it to myself, in adulthood. I have
yet to admit it to anyone besides myself and one other person, for good reason.
All of my families' and friends' suspicions would be confirmed and I simply don't want
to deal with that right now. I'm still ashamed of it, for some unknown reason. Mainly
because I don't want the girls I've hung out with my entire life, to think I was tricking
them somehow, because I'm not going to lie: I did enjoy the benefit of getting to see them
naked just because I was a girl.

I would call myself as being in denial. I knew I was bi deep down, but to hell if I
would admit that! Not only are we the procreating gender of the species, we're all
emotions. It's through sheer will that I denied myself indulgence of women,
but no matter how hard I tried or how wrong I thought it was (I was Christian!), I
would still kick myself every time I found myself looking at a girl more than a girl should.
I couldn't help it, it wasn't a choice. If it was a choice, then perhaps you could explain
to me how I had attraction to girls even before I knew what gay was? When I was a child
I literally had girlfriends. Come to find out in adulthood, they were bi too. But when we were
little we were Christian raised, and I honestly did not know what gay was until I was about 10yrs old.
Just because I didn't know what it was, doesn't denigrate the feelings or attractions that I had back then. It wasn't until I was 17yrs old that I found out what Bi was.
Yes, I did live in a bubble, before you ask. I was homeschooled, went to Christian private schools, etc.

Once I finally figured out what I was, I didn't admit it for another 12yrs. Twelve years!
Come to think of it, my boyfriend at the Christian school: I always thought he was gay. He was my best friend, and knew more about clothes than me. Turns out he was gay. Poor guy had to deal with having a girlfriend just to dispel this horrible stigma at a Christian run school. I didn't mind much that he never kissed me, because I was more interested in the girls! It was just the way things had to be, so I could fit in with my environment.

In conclusion, Mister John V, I think you need to re-examine your conclusions on the subject, not the other way around.

As noted, the longitudinal study of women I presented found that, over ten years, 2/3 changed their self-identity, and half of those changed more than once. That means 1/3 didn't change. You would apparently be in the latter 1/3. So, what's your point?

ETA: Why do you refer to yourself as bi, when you only mention attraction to women, and were glad that your boyfriend didn't kiss you?

My point is, that that study is bullshit because it's based on people and those people could be in denial about their orientation. Had I taken that study even just a couple years ago, I would've identified myself as straight because that's what I thought with strong conviction, that I should be. When your spiritual well-being ie: HELL, relies upon that answer--you'll answer based on what you should, not what you know is the real truth. I truly considered myself a huge sinner for having the thoughts I did, and I was ashamed of the true answer--thus, to be a good daughter of god I would do anything, including denying who I am.

I'm bi because I like men. I prefer men over women. I guess yes I would say my natural orientation was gay but due to social stigma I was forced into the opposite gender, and found that I liked it. People's attractions can change, but their natural predisposition never does. I am who I am, simply.

Mind you too, please. I said I didn't mind that he didn't kiss me, not that I was happy he didn't.

The thing is, whether or not sexual orientation is a choice is completely irrelevant. Discriminating against non-heterosexual people is every bit as stupidly cruel even if it was something we could turn off at will.

The matter of sexuality being choice or nature should matter only to scientists. What is important is, does being gay, bisexual, etc. in any way cause harm to straight people? The answer is very obviously not, so really, it's none of your business.

(February 19, 2013 at 3:54 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: I'm bi because I like men. I prefer men over women. I guess yes I would say my natural orientation was gay but due to social stigma I was forced into the opposite gender, and found that I liked it. People's attractions can change, but their natural predisposition never does. I am who I am, simply.

Thanks!

---

(February 19, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Ryantology Wrote: The thing is, whether or not sexual orientation is a choice is completely irrelevant.

You all thought it was relevant before the evidence stacked up against you.

You're welcome. You're still missing the point, but you're welcome.

I can be attracted to something particular (and in fact attraction changes alot), but it doesn't change my orientation. My attractions change regularly; you yourself could acquire an attraction to say, little boobs over big boobs. You're orientation is still straight. I acquired attraction to men, and it stuck. It doesn't negate the fact that I am oriented towards women and have been since childhood. I am who I am.

at·trac·tion [uh-trak-shuhn]
noun
1.the act, power, or property of attracting.
2.attractive quality; magnetic charm; fascination; allurement; enticement: the subtle attraction of her strange personality.
3.a person or thing that draws, attracts, allures, or entices: The main attraction was the after-dinner speaker.
4.a characteristic or quality that provides pleasure; attractive feature: The chief attractions of the evening were the good drinks and witty conversation.


ORIENTATION

a : the act or process of orienting or of being oriented
b : the state of being oriented; broadly : arrangement, alignment
a : a usually general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest
b : a person's self-identification as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual <sexual orientation>

(February 19, 2013 at 4:25 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: You're welcome. You're still missing the point, but you're welcome.

I can be attracted to something particular (and in fact attraction changes alot), but it doesn't change my orientation. My attractions change regularly; you yourself could acquire an attraction to say, little boobs over big boobs. You're orientation is still straight. I acquired attraction to men, and it stuck. It doesn't negate the fact that I am oriented towards women and have been since childhood. I am who I am.

Works for me!

Overall I have to agree with Ryan here. The main issue is that people like you, John, seem to believe that it is your right to issue upon other people your view as to their morality based on a life style that is demonstrably innocuous. There is absolutely no secular reason for straight people to have more rights than any other orientation, and the religious one basically comes down to "Because god said so". Your god doesn't even give any reasons for why it is bad, or examples of the harm it causes, it's just bad because he said it is. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: That's law by arbitration, and it's intrinsically unjust.