Quote:But over all, I'm against it.

And are you going to support it until it is 18? Or are you simply willing to tell someone else what they have to do with their life?

We have lots of republicunt state legislatures who make abortion difficult but who then also try to kill welfare programs that these kids need. They seem to like fetuses right up until the minute they are born...and, of course, if they commit a crime they are perfectly willing to kill them then.

(March 9, 2013 at 12:04 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And are you going to support it until it is 18?

Relevance? But I don't mind being taxed like everyone partially to support people who can't raise a baby.

Quote: Or are you simply willing to tell someone else what they have to do with their life?

No. This is a straw man.

Quote:We have lots of republicunt state legislatures who make abortion difficult but who then also try to kill welfare programs that these kids need.

I'm part of ACORN, I pay money every month in a cause for welfare programs and reforms to help low income people.

I'm not right wing. I'm very much towards the left as far as most things are concerned.

(March 9, 2013 at 11:43 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I am against abortion. The reason is that we don't know exactly when the "baby" is "alive" in the "awareness" sense. Therefore abortion can be potentially killing a soul/human. That's just cold.

Actually, we really can know: http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ness-arise

Science rocks.

Beyond that, is awareness really the sole qualifier for life, in your opinion? Because infants don't even come out of the womb with a complete suite of conscious abilities. That shit grows in later.

Quote:Also another thing is that a baby is pretty much on the way. I understand the choice not have children etc...but when the baby is on it's way, preventing that is a whole different matter and is not analogous to condoms or pregnancy prevention pills.

Isn't it? I mean, the fetus doesn't come prepackaged in a human form, you know. How is preventing pregnancy so much different just because the sperm and egg have joined? It's all just cells.

Quote:It's one of the coldest things humans can do in my honest opinion. I dread at the thought that so much of society is supporting it.

So long as you keep in mind that your opinions aren't representative of the entire world and you can't restrict the freedom of others based on them, then fine.

Quote:There is of course exceptions to the rule. For example, if the life of the mother is severely in danger, perhaps this is a grey area.

If it were my wife in danger, you can bet your ass I wouldn't be waiting for your, or anyone else's, imprimatur to save her damn life any way possible, abortion or no.

I think we are talking about awareness in a different sense. I mean if the baby can experience things, it's aware of that thing. I don't mean sophisticated awareness.

As far as a wife's life in danger, personally, I would want to save her. But if she chooses to want the baby to be alive over her life, I wouldn't say she was being evil/unjust to herself. This is why I said it's a grey area.

(March 9, 2013 at 12:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think we are talking about awareness in a different sense. I mean if the baby can experience things, it's aware of that thing. I don't mean sophisticated awareness.

Experience in what way? Because rocks experience things too, you know.

If you're talking about awareness in accordance with the human experience, then obviously the fetus doesn't gain any of that until its brain has developed. But if you're just talking about experience in the way that matter is present for things to happen around it, then... well, what doesn't count as a child by that definition?

I don't know how to define it. Seems like we are playing semantics to justify killing babies.

(March 9, 2013 at 1:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know how to define it. Seems like we are playing semantics to justify killing babies.

That's exactly what they're doing... Just don't do it for reasons they don't like, they'll call you immoral for that...

(March 9, 2013 at 12:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think we are talking about awareness in a different sense. I mean if the baby can experience things, it's aware of that thing. I don't mean sophisticated awareness.

And that view would be wrong. Capacity to experience something is not the same as being aware of it. Plants can experience things - as evidenced by their response to external stimuli - but we do not credit them with any sort of awareness.

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(March 9, 2013 at 1:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know how to define it. Seems like we are playing semantics to justify killing babies.

If you don't know how to define it, then you are in no position to base your arguments on it. What is being justified here is that what we are killing are not in fact babies.

(March 9, 2013 at 1:18 pm)genkaus Wrote:

(March 9, 2013 at 1:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know how to define it. Seems like we are playing semantics to justify killing babies.

If you don't know how to define it, then you are in no position to base your arguments on it. What is being justified here is that what we are killing are not in fact babies.

Bull fucking SHIT! Same DNA, same original lifeforce, same individual living being. Just because you require it to reach a certain age of development doesn't change this fact. (really, please argue that it isn't the same being)

A seed is considered a plant by the government here in the US, so an ebryo, fetus, "a bunch of fucking cells" deserves a higher standard than we (you) allow a human being.

You are messed up if you consider sexism more reprehensible than killing human life...
.

I'm an atheist who is not supportive of the death penalty, regardless of the severity of the convicted's crime. My opinion about this is based off of the idea that "an eye for an eye" is an ancient and barbaric method of punishment that was used as a way to serve primitive judicial systems. As for induced abortion, I'm somewhat iffy on the subject.