(March 15, 2013 at 10:36 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: ...miracles should have happened every now and again at my Pentecostal church of ~1000 people, answered prayers shouldn't look like a trivial coincidence based on explainable factors...

If you take the the total number of miracles recorded in the Bible and you divide by the period of time covered by the Bible, say roughly 6000 years, then you will see that even by biblical standards miracles are very rare events. Now there are clusters of miracles (punctuated equilibrium if you will) around certain exceptional figures, like Moses and Jesus, but that is to be expected. Plus there seems to be dry spells, like the 400 years of Egyptian captivity.

(March 15, 2013 at 5:49 pm)ronedee Wrote: Every atheist ...eh...rational atheist I've conversed with has always pointed out that "a god, if he indeed so exists....would be omnipotent."
(i.e. able to do anything!)

Not all gods are omnipotent. Christians often claim their god is omnipotent, but since Christians follow a false god, it's a moot point.

(March 15, 2013 at 11:01 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(March 15, 2013 at 10:36 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: ...miracles should have happened every now and again at my Pentecostal church of ~1000 people, answered prayers shouldn't look like a trivial coincidence based on explainable factors...

If you take the the total number of miracles recorded in the Bible and you divide by the period of time covered by the Bible, say roughly 6000 years, then you will see that even by biblical standards miracles are very rare events. Now there are clusters of miracles (punctuated equilibrium if you will) around certain exceptional figures, like Moses and Jesus, but that is to be expected. Plus there seems to be dry spells, like the 400 years of Egyptian captivity.

I can see what you're saying. Of course, the events surrounding Moses and Moses 2.0 (Jesus) are up for debate.

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(March 15, 2013 at 11:24 pm)apophenia Wrote:

(March 15, 2013 at 5:49 pm)ronedee Wrote: Every atheist ...eh...rational atheist I've conversed with has always pointed out that "a god, if he indeed so exists....would be omnipotent."
(i.e. able to do anything!)

Not all gods are omnipotent. Christians often claim their god is omnipotent, but since Christians follow a false god, it's a moot point.

The question these Christians have to answer is this: can God create a rock he can't lift? Of course, we can cut to the chase and say he's not omnipotent because iron seems to be this rock:

Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

(March 15, 2013 at 11:24 pm)apophenia Wrote:

(March 15, 2013 at 5:49 pm)ronedee Wrote: Every atheist ...eh...rational atheist I've conversed with has always pointed out that "a god, if he indeed so exists....would be omnipotent."
(i.e. able to do anything!)

Not all gods are omnipotent. Christians often claim their god is omnipotent, but since Christians follow a false god, it's a moot point.

I've always thought that setting the bar at "omni-" was just too high. Surely some little godling somewhere gets by with less. Hell, maybe some are total pacifists. This brings me back to my number one question about gods. WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY? Why wouldn't a really advanced alien suffice? Must it be the only creator? Be eternal? Be the baddest ass around? Be the bouncer in the line for eternal life?

(March 13, 2013 at 10:37 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Because the Bible is a text, it means that the meaning derived from it will be subject to the person reading it. This arguably means that there will be as many interpretations of the text as there are people reading it. How is it possible then to ever think that the Bible is the Ultimate Truth, since truth is binary in nature (i.e. something can be true or false). We seem to have a whole spectrum of what God made a reality (and hence the truth) according to the broad range of interpretations, but only one interpretation will have the right combination of true/false propositions.

The meaning of God's word in general has specific meanings, there are passages that can have different meanings for different people, it depends on their spiritual needs. The Bible is intended to be a spiritual guide for many different people and peoples, God gave us this work to help us walk in a relationship with Him. Many people and denominations have misrepresented God's word, I sure I have and not known it. When a scripture is in dispute the parties should set down and test their interpretations against the whole of God's word. I bet you do not consider the truths you know through science as binary in nature.

FtR Wrote:To sum up (assuming God exists):
P1) God exists
P2) Truth depends on what God decided to be a part of reality or not
P3) There are an endless possibility of interpretations of what this reality is
P4) There is only one correct interpretation of the truth
C) Therefore, the probability that the correct interpretation is the one the believer holds is 0

P1) is true.
P2) is not true, God does not decides is truth, truth is determined by God's nature, ie. who He is.
P3) in general is correct, however the interpretations are not what makes truth, as I said above truth is determined by God's nature.
P4) is true in general.
C) Is wrong, truth is absolute because God is unchanging in his nature. The interpretation of God's word by man does not change truth, man's interpretations are as fallible as man. This does not mean that people have not understood God's truth, as far as I know all Christians have much of God's truth in them.
You'er trying to make mountains out of mole hills, mostly from denominational differences, differences that have no eternal significance in general.

FtR Wrote:James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Assuming this verse means to say that anyone who teaches falsehoods will be punished, it then follows that pastors all around the world are leading their sheep astray (since the probability that their interpretation is 0) and they are earning themselves spanks on the bum for teaching these falsehoods.

Those who teach falsely will be punished, Matt. 5-19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Not the spanking you had in mind is it.

FtR Wrote:To sum up: a book whose truth-value depends on time, place & culture for it to be verified and deemed as the plausible Ultimate Truth should always be discarded. A more reasoned approach to seek for truth is in nature, because nature isn't dependent on time, place & culture. Therefore the truths found in physics, maths & philosophy can always be verified and tested unlike the scribblings of a culture long gone.

Your summary is all wrong, God's word ie. truth does not depend on time, place or culture, God's truth transcends all, it is unchanging because God's nature is unchanging. How can you say nature isn't dependent on time, place or culture, so much in nature has been changed by these forces, thus nature has changed.

Hey G-C

hope you are well.

(March 16, 2013 at 2:11 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Hey G-C

hope you are well.

Hey Kich, I'm OK need some time to examine myself, I did not like the attitude I was presenting here. This means I will not be as involved as before, but will be active to some degree, yet to be determined.
I hope you and everyone else has been well.

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(March 16, 2013 at 2:11 am)Minimalist Wrote:

You sound disappointed Min. I want be as active as I was in the past, so you want have to put up with me as much.

(March 16, 2013 at 2:39 am)Godschild Wrote:

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(March 16, 2013 at 2:11 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Hey G-C

hope you are well.

Hey Kich, I'm OK need some time to examine myself, I did not like the attitude I was presenting here. This means I will not be as involved as before, but will be active to some degree, yet to be determined.
I hope you and everyone else has been well.

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(March 16, 2013 at 2:11 am)Minimalist Wrote:

You sound disappointed Min. I want be as active as I was in the past, so you want have to put up with me as much.

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Sorry to just pop in here, no intention of derailing the thread.

Glad things are good for you G-C

(March 16, 2013 at 12:03 am)FallentoReason Wrote: The question these Christians have to answer is this: can God create a rock he can't lift?

Yes. A human heart that has chosen to be hardened against Him.

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(March 16, 2013 at 2:39 am)Godschild Wrote: ...I'm OK need some time to examine myself, I did not like the attitude I was presenting here.

I know the feeling. You were a lightning rod for abuse. I took a breather for a while because the vulgarity and vileness got to me, but then I remembered the few members I respected and though about those who read without posting.

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(March 16, 2013 at 1:17 am)whateverist Wrote: I've always thought that setting the bar at "omni-" was just too high.

Sometimes I think all the "omni-" words fall into what I call "church-speak", phrases that get used so often they become meaningless. I find it helpful to toy around with the order to see subtle shift in undestanding. What if instead of calling God 'All powerful' we said 'power over all', or suppose instead of 'all knowing' we just say he knows everything there is to know?