Strudel, this can be solved very simply.

All you have to do is provide replicable, independently verifiable evidence of ANY supernatural event or occurrence. Doesn't even have to be a face-to-face with a god. Any average miracle, ghost, or aura-reading will do.

See, if you can prove even one supernatural experience, you give creedence to ALL supernatural experiences.

The problem for us is that there has never, in the history of man, been a single verified supernatural experience. Not one. This leads us to believe that supernatural experiences are a product of the mind of those experiencing them.

So you can whine all you want about us discounting your PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of experiences but it doesn't change a thing until you provide evidence.

Oh, and people taking pictures and showing them to a judge still requires interpretation. Life is an interpretation. Objective reality, if it exists, is not perceivable by humans. It is well known and well documented that two people seeing exactly the same event will report that event very differently BASED ON PERCEPTION. So your argument that perception is not involved is patently ridiculous.

What would you expect the form of evidence that would satisfy you to take?

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(March 21, 2013 at 6:26 am)Tonus Wrote:

(March 21, 2013 at 1:14 am)jstrodel Wrote: You are using mental health terminology to advance your movement. You don't have one bit of evidence that I am suffering at all, but that won't stop you, because you don't care about evidence, you care about advancing atheism.

I do have "one bit of evidence" that you are hallucinating: your own rambling posts about how you experience god. As I already explained, people who are mentally ill or otherwise not in their right mind will talk to, hear, and even see things that aren't there. This is well known and documented. Many people suffering from such maladies will insist that they're fine. This is well known and documented. Parts of your reply to me display the hallmarks of paranoid schizophrenia, which is a well known and documented illness.

What is not well known and documented is people who actually talk to and see god. Therefore, the weight of evidence leads me to a logical conclusion: you are in the throes of some mental problem, and are hallucinating.

You slander me and call me paranoid schizophrenic without posting a single post that shows evidence of this. You don't care about evidence, you care about advancing atheism and doing what you want.

Post a single post that I have made which displays signs of schizophrenia, along with the diagnostic criteria. I want to see it.

Of course you probably have no problem with accusing people without providing any forms of evidence, so you won't post this.

(March 22, 2013 at 12:02 pm)jstrodel Wrote: What would you expect the form of evidence that would satisfy you to take?

Anything that is replicable and testable within a scientific setting. Basically, the same kind of proof that i accept for anything else.

Show me a ghost. Read my mind. Make a statue weep. Turn water to wine. Break the moon. Walk on water. Make staffs into serpents. Answer the questions only god could know. Demonstrate the power of prayer. Heal an amputee. Raise someone from the dead.

(March 22, 2013 at 11:46 am)Faith No More Wrote: You are trying to bolster your position by claiming anyone that dismisses the supernatural as prejudiced and implying they are not "honest people." You have no idea how much people have explored the supernatural, yet you feel confident in claiming that anyone who doesn't believe in the supernatural hasn't.

How can you dare call materialists prejudiced with a straight face? Do you not have any mirrors where you live?

Give me evidence that proves that materialism is true.

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(March 22, 2013 at 12:08 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:

(March 22, 2013 at 12:02 pm)jstrodel Wrote: What would you expect the form of evidence that would satisfy you to take?

Anything that is replicable and testable within a scientific setting. Basically, the same kind of proof that i accept for anything else.

Show me a ghost. Read my mind. Make a statue weep. Turn water to wine. Break the moon. Walk on water. Make staffs into serpents. Answer the questions only god could know. Demonstrate the power of prayer. Heal an amputee. Raise someone from the dead.

How would i prove this over the internet?

(March 22, 2013 at 12:02 pm)jstrodel Wrote: You slander me and call me paranoid schizophrenic without posting a single post that shows evidence of this. You don't care about evidence, you care about advancing atheism and doing what you want.

Post a single post that I have made which displays signs of schizophrenia, along with the diagnostic criteria. I want to see it.

Of course you probably have no problem with accusing people without providing any forms of evidence, so you won't post this.

You have made it quite clear that, in the past, you have had obsessive compulsive issues, drug addiction issues, and that you have generally taken any activity that you have engaged in to an extreme, sometimes to the detriment of your person.

Have you ever stopped to think that this god-obsession you have might just be the latest in a string of clingy, obsessive glomming that has been an issue all your life? Do you think maybe you might be clinically...less than stable?

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(March 22, 2013 at 12:09 pm)jstrodel Wrote: How would i prove this over the internet?

The same way anything is proved over the internet. Evidence, peer-reviewed documents, repeatable experimentation, independently reviewed lab work.

If these things are as common and real as you claim then finding this type of evidence should be quite easy.

I don't have the resources to start a peer review journal of the science of mysticism. All of your faith is in science.

(March 22, 2013 at 12:02 pm)jstrodel Wrote: What would you expect the form of evidence that would satisfy you to take?

What part of "provide replicable, independently verifiable evidence of ANY supernatural event or occurrence" didn't you understand?

What you posted isn't even close to a diagnostic criteria. You have a vicious double standard, expecting things in the language of science which predate and influenced science and are of a different and higher nature, and not even subjecting your own criticisms, arising from the science of psychiatry, to any sort of diagnostic criteria that remotely resembles real medecine.

You don't care about evidence, you care about culture war. You are a sophist. You could care less if my experience is genuine, what you want is to prove atheism. You will never use the same standard you attack others with to justify your own beliefs.

You could not even line a single post that I write up with diagnostic criteria, yet you expect me to put mysticism in a journal format that is foreign to its nature.

Are you even aware that the present state of science and academia and the methods and disciplines of the modern world only go back to the 19th century?

There have been many mystics who have been philosophers and intellectuals, the monastic movement is full of them. Look them up.

You are making unreasonable demands of me. How would I have a peer reviewed journal to put my experiences in? Why can't you just hear what someone says, not make any judgements about theology, and neither accept nor reject absolutely the evidence that is a testimony from an honest person?

You can't disprove my experience. I have done drugs, so have most of the people that post on this message board. So what. You have no evidence that I am obsessive compulsive. You just made that up.

(March 22, 2013 at 12:09 pm)jstrodel Wrote: Give me evidence that proves that materialism is true.

This isn't about the validity of materialism despite the fact that no supernatural claim has ever met the burden of proof. No, this is about your claim that materialists are inherently prejudiced. That is a bare assertion that you have pulled out of your ass with no substantiating evidence.

That makes you...wait for it...

(March 22, 2013 at 12:19 pm)Kayenneh Wrote:

(March 22, 2013 at 12:02 pm)jstrodel Wrote: What would you expect the form of evidence that would satisfy you to take?

What part of "provide replicable, independently verifiable evidence of ANY supernatural event or occurrence" didn't you understand?

Why should miraculous events have to be replicable? Why should God submit to scientific methods? Do you think that is a little bit arrogant to expect that God repeats himself along the same intervals as can be appreciated by science?

What if God links miracles to obedience to God's will?

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Would you demand replicable, independently verifiable evidence to prove a crime?