Quote: I have no problem with your beliefs, yet, if these beliefs influence politics - it gets dangerous. It is especially dangerous if a believing person ignores the beliefs, convictions and needs of others.

For example, Christians who support the Israeli state for religious reasons may support illegal settlers in the west bank and thereby undermine the peace process, thereby indangering people who dont share their convictions plus inforcing the moves that their beliefs require without consideration of what others may think of it.

We (i.e. me and the others of the same denomination) don't get involved in politics. and also- I'm not really saying that Israel's always doing the right things. One of the quotes I put up in the OP said that despite their wickedness they would return.

Quote: I may also add, that it is a problem if one only supports Israel because one thinks that christ will return there.
Because it pritty much ignores everything for which the nation was originaly built for. It abuses the israelis and the jewish state as if they were pawns in a chess game.

again- we don't get involved in politics. We don't support any nation- but we respect all the people (in any nation) as real people with stories, ambitions, hopes, successes and failures... We don't do politics for two reasons:
1) Christ said in John 18:36 that his kingdom is not of this world (kosmos= arrangement); Politics has little to do with the kingdom.
2) When religion has meddled with politics, the result has often been a lot of confused, bloody wars--- and a lot of hate.
You can call them pawns- but it can only be a bad thing if God doesn't exist. If Yahweh is real, you can bet that this pawn will reach the end of the board.

Quote: I find it interesting that you don't believe there exists a literal hell.
Tell me more.

Okay, first of all, there are some confused passages used to support hell- I'll just need to clean up the mess first:
Dan 12:2: "some to everlasting contempt"- contempt simply means 'shame'- everlasting shame- fair enough, there will be some ashamed people.
Matt 10:28: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"- again, I need to look at the original language: 'soul' here means 'life'. The correct way to interpret this passage is that we don't need to worry about dying in this life- we need to worry about not having (eternal) life. This passage does not talk about hell:
--It proves too much- the concept of hell relies on the immortal soul, but if the soul can be destroyed, how is it immortal? Also-
--We don't got to 'hell' (a fire-pit) in body either, because the bible says that when we die, we perish like the beasts (Psa 49:14,19-20); i.e. we die, and then rot in the grave.

The concept of everlasting fire is a symbol of destruction and ruin- I'll prove it with the following passages
Mark 9:43-44 ..."hell, the fire that never shall be quenched: where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." If this passage is to be taken literally, it would defeat hell in itself: if the worm doesn't die, it would be huge!! Also, worms eat dead bodies. This simply supports what I was saying about Gehenna- a rubbish dump- and I'll get to that a bit later.
Jude 7..."suffering the vengeance of eternal fire": This verse is talking about Sodom and Gomorrha. This cannot be literal, because the fact was that these cities were destroyed in an instant! (Lam 4:6). Furthermore, there are two possible locations for Sodom and Gomorrha- the first is at the bottom of the dead sea- which is water (fire in water? Enough said), or at a recent archeological find which they think is Sodom- they didn't find any 4,000 year old fires.
Revelation 14:11: "and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever!"- the same was said of Edom in Isa 34:10- go to Edom, you won't see smoke!! This is clearly another figure of complete destruction. I suggest this also because revelation is filled with symbols- wine of wrath? Women sitting on seven hills? third of the sea turned into blood? Lots of symbols in Revelation.

Gehenna refers to the Jerusalem rubbish dump- it was the valley of the son of Hinnom (Heb= Gai Ben Hennon)- hence the greek version is 'Gehenna'. Here the rubbish was burnt continually- it was the highest mark of shame to be buried there.

In Luke 16- Jesus mentioned a chasm where the rich man is tortured, and can see Lazarus 'in Abrahams bosom'. This was a Jewish myth that Jesus used for the sake of the argument- it was a parable. If it wasn't, I don't know what is! I would further say it's not real because Lazarus cannot be in Abrahams bosom; Abraham had not yet recieved his reward!!! (Heb 11:8,13,39-40)- he was rotting in the grave, like everyone else who died. also, if this was literal, how were they able to converse? Is hell in heaven? It reeks of Jewish mythology- and this not the only case in which mythology is referred to- Paul refers to a greek poem in Titus 1 which actually argues for the existence of Zeus! Jude also talked about the book of Enoch- which is a load of trash...

Now here are some further reason to do away with this fiery-pit-of-eternal-torture nonsense:
1) God's character is denied: an infinite punishment for finite sins? Why would God want to condemn the vast majority of all who have ever lived to torture? What would you think of someone who tortured a criminal for a week? let alone a bunch of non-criminals, good people and children? Why would God specifically forget about the idea of a grave, and go to the effort of creating a fiery torture pit?
2) Hell originated from paganism- this is an easy fact to google- and is one of the many pagan beliefs that a lot of Christians hold nowadays. (you can't appeal to the majority; Matt 7:13-14).
3) Psalm 141:7- our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth- this is the same hebrew word as 'Sheol'- so what is this verse saying about hell? A place where you will find scattered bones.
4) Eccl 9:10- "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave"- again, the same 'sheol' word otherwise translated as hell. This verse makes nonsense about a fire-pit of eternal torture.
5) The faithful men of old have not received their reward (Heb 11:39-40)- they're rotting in the grave. Does this mean they are being tortured all this time?
6) If we tortured forever, immortality would not be dependant upon belief in Jesus (Jn 6:40; 11:25; 3:16,36) nor would it only be for the righteous (Rom 2:6-8), nor would it be a gift (Rom 6:23).
And that is why I don't believe in hell.

Quote:For the record, I don't want to live forever in any sense. I want to be dead when I die - I find that a comforting thought.

Well I'm happy to say you're not going to hell.

(March 22, 2013 at 8:58 am)jap23 Wrote: This concept of 'God's coming back to send you all to hell' is something that lacks good biblical reasoning. If you refuse to obey God- the worst thing that'll happen to you as that you'll die. After that, nothing- the concept of 'hell' being a place of eternal torture and torment lacks any biblical evidence.

What about this?

---

Revelation 20:The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

---

Greek
And it separated Hades and the lake of fire as different things. So...

The majority of my answer was already in my expanded post that was in response to persuademe.
But I'll say that this can not be literal for the following reasons:
--death is cast into the fire? (Rev 14:10)
--hell is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14)- hades can mean the grave or, as I should have said before - the power of death. The power of death will come to complete destruction (Rev 21:4; 1 Cor 15:55)
--symbols are frequently interpreted- e.g. the women is a great city (Rev 17:18), 'waters' are peoples (Rev 17:15). The lake of fire is 'the second death'- Rev 20:14; 21:8.
Other than that, refer to what I said in my previous post:

Quote:Revelation 14:11: "and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever!"- the same was said of Edom in Isa 34:10- go to Edom, you won't see smoke!! This is clearly another figure of complete destruction. I suggest this also because revelation is filled with symbols- wine of wrath? Women sitting on seven hills? third of the sea turned into blood? Lots of symbols in Revelation.

changes made to clarify

(March 22, 2013 at 7:49 pm)jap23 Wrote: The majority of my answer was already in my expanded post that was in response to persuademe.
But I'll say that this can not be literal for the following reasons:
--death is cast into the fire? (Rev 14:10)
--hell is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14)- hades can mean the grave or, as I should have said before - the power of death. The power of death will come to complete destruction (Rev 21:4; 1 Cor 15:55)
--symbols are frequently interpreted- e.g. the women is a great city (Rev 17:18), 'waters' are peoples (Rev 17:15). The lake of fire is 'the second death'- Rev 20:14; 21:8.
Other than that, refer to what I said in my previous post.

changes made to clarify

Yeah, I think the pastors at my old church interpreted it as non-literal because it was so out there (and some things appeared symbolic), but I still wonder why god would give John a completely symbolic vision and not tell him it wasn't literal. It just seems like poor communication.

Rev 1:1: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bond-servants (1) the things which must soon take place; and he sent and communicated (2) it by his angel to his bond-servant John.
1)- Revelation was primarily for the bond-servants- people who have dedicated their life to preaching and studying the gospel. All the symbols in revelation have a very solid biblical explanation, but I cannot possibly explain revelation in a single forum post.
2)- Communicated can also be translated as 'signified'- i.e. told through signs.

The more you look at Revelation, the more it would have been quite obvious that there were signs, usually not literal. If I start rambling on about a woman big enough to sit on seven mountains (Rev 17:9), would you think I'm being serious? I wish I can explain all of revelation, but that's not practical in a forum post, nor have I completed the study myself.

(March 22, 2013 at 7:16 pm)jap23 Wrote: We (i.e. me and the others of the same denomination) don't get involved in politics. and also- I'm not really saying that Israel's always doing the right things. One of the quotes I put up in the OP said that despite their wickedness they would return.

lol. You cant seriously tell me that you are not involved or at least informed and interested in politics. Maybe you keep your faith out too some extent, but everyone is somehow somewhere interested and in participation with his or her nations political process.
After all, you live in a democracy. Living in a democracy and not taking part in the political process is a bit foolish to me.

"wickedness"?????

please tell me that you are not an antisemite.

Quote:again- we don't get involved in politics. We don't support any nation- but we respect all the people (in any nation) as real people with stories, ambitions, hopes, successes and failures... We don't do politics for two reasons:
1) Christ said in John 18:36 that his kingdom is not of this world (kosmos= arrangement); Politics has little to do with the kingdom.
2) When religion has meddled with politics, the result has often been a lot of confused, bloody wars--- and a lot of hate.
You can call them pawns- but it can only be a bad thing if God doesn't exist. If Yahweh is real, you can bet that this pawn will reach the end of the board.

Well, but you cant tell me that you are not interested in how high or low taxes should be set, legal matters, education politics, inferstructure programs, and more and more and more.

Even if you are not interested in foreign politics of your country.

Your representatives and their decisions have an impact on your life, if you voted for them or not.

where did I say I wasn't interested?

EDIT: I also forgot to include:
Anti-semite? really? considering everything I've already said?
'wicked' is in a religious sense- they didn't repent or accept Christ and they still commit the same crimes that any other race does. The difference is that Israel was meant to stand out as God's ambassadors- and they haven't really taken up that role for ages.
and in anticipation of "am I wicked then?": You may be moral- but you can still be 'wicked' from a religious view- in the sense that you haven't accepted God. But, if you don't believe in him it should mean very little to you.

Well if you "dont participate" how can you be interested?

Since if you are interested - you will probably have a opinion on things - and since you live in a democracy - having and voicing a opinion on current political affairs actualy is participating in the political field.

Or do you see it differently?

(March 22, 2013 at 8:13 pm)jap23 Wrote: If I start rambling on about a woman big enough to sit on seven mountains (Rev 17:9), would you think I'm being serious?

Like...do I think you're insane for believing that, or do I think it's true? (I'm not calling you insane, if it wasn't clear)

Truth is, there are a lot of things in the bible that seem crazy that aren't considered symbolic, maybe not crazy in the same way though.

Quote:Well if you "dont participate" how can you be interested?

?? do I need to participate in something to be interested in it? We believe the most high rules in the kingdoms of men- we realise that political decisions shouldn't be ours to influence or participate in making, but to be left in the hands of God.

Quote: Since if you are interested - you will probably have a opinion on things - and since you live in a democracy - having and voicing a opinion on current political affairs actually is participating in the political field.

So, if I have an opinion on something, but I don't voice it, am I participating in politics?
Seems very bizzarre, but I'll assume a 'yes'. btw- you should be a lawyer- 'cos it seems you're trying very hard to fit label me 'dangerous' or 'anti-semitic'.
I'll spell it out- please don't assume anything outside of this...
I believe Israel is the place where Christ will set up his new, everlasting kingdom. I believe it won't be destroyed again. I don't (or shouldn't) vote or try to influence national movements in any way.

Quote:Like...do I think you're insane for believing that, or do I think it's true? (I'm not calling you insane, if it wasn't clear)

Truth is, there are a lot of things in the bible that seem crazy that aren't considered symbolic, maybe not crazy in the same way though.

I meant: 'do you think I'm being serious'. I'll try to put it in a better way: If I told you: "guess what! a woman sat on seven hills last night, Oh, and the woman is a city"- would you think I'd expect you to take it literally?

I guess you have a point there- that there were some crazy things that happened- but if we to take, for example- the water coming out of the rock at Mt.Horeb, the situation doesn't permit for a symbolic interpretation, If it was symbolic, the jews would have had their thirsts symbolically quenched... unfortunately it wouldn't have helped in real life.

Revelation, for example, does- because there are some things that just don't make sense if they are literal- how can death be killed? Also, a lot of the symbols would be meaningless rubbish if they were to be taken literally.
Also, I would think Rev 1:1 is pretty conclusive- John knew revelation was symbolic because he wrote the book- included chapter 1, verse 1.