Quote: I have no problem with your beliefs, yet, if these beliefs influence politics - it gets dangerous. It is especially dangerous if a believing person ignores the beliefs, convictions and needs of others.We (i.e. me and the others of the same denomination) don't get involved in politics. and also- I'm not really saying that Israel's always doing the right things. One of the quotes I put up in the OP said that despite their wickedness they would return.
For example, Christians who support the Israeli state for religious reasons may support illegal settlers in the west bank and thereby undermine the peace process, thereby indangering people who dont share their convictions plus inforcing the moves that their beliefs require without consideration of what others may think of it.
Quote: I may also add, that it is a problem if one only supports Israel because one thinks that christ will return there.again- we don't get involved in politics. We don't support any nation- but we respect all the people (in any nation) as real people with stories, ambitions, hopes, successes and failures... We don't do politics for two reasons:
Because it pritty much ignores everything for which the nation was originaly built for. It abuses the israelis and the jewish state as if they were pawns in a chess game.
1) Christ said in John 18:36 that his kingdom is not of this world (kosmos= arrangement); Politics has little to do with the kingdom.
2) When religion has meddled with politics, the result has often been a lot of confused, bloody wars--- and a lot of hate.
You can call them pawns- but it can only be a bad thing if God doesn't exist. If Yahweh is real, you can bet that this pawn will reach the end of the board.
Quote: I find it interesting that you don't believe there exists a literal hell.Okay, first of all, there are some confused passages used to support hell- I'll just need to clean up the mess first:
Tell me more.
Dan 12:2: "some to everlasting contempt"- contempt simply means 'shame'- everlasting shame- fair enough, there will be some ashamed people.
Matt 10:28: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"- again, I need to look at the original language: 'soul' here means 'life'. The correct way to interpret this passage is that we don't need to worry about dying in this life- we need to worry about not having (eternal) life. This passage does not talk about hell:
--It proves too much- the concept of hell relies on the immortal soul, but if the soul can be destroyed, how is it immortal? Also-
--We don't got to 'hell' (a fire-pit) in body either, because the bible says that when we die, we perish like the beasts (Psa 49:14,19-20); i.e. we die, and then rot in the grave.
The concept of everlasting fire is a symbol of destruction and ruin- I'll prove it with the following passages
Mark 9:43-44 ..."hell, the fire that never shall be quenched: where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." If this passage is to be taken literally, it would defeat hell in itself: if the worm doesn't die, it would be huge!! Also, worms eat dead bodies. This simply supports what I was saying about Gehenna- a rubbish dump- and I'll get to that a bit later.
Jude 7..."suffering the vengeance of eternal fire": This verse is talking about Sodom and Gomorrha. This cannot be literal, because the fact was that these cities were destroyed in an instant! (Lam 4:6). Furthermore, there are two possible locations for Sodom and Gomorrha- the first is at the bottom of the dead sea- which is water (fire in water? Enough said), or at a recent archeological find which they think is Sodom- they didn't find any 4,000 year old fires.
Revelation 14:11: "and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever!"- the same was said of Edom in Isa 34:10- go to Edom, you won't see smoke!! This is clearly another figure of complete destruction. I suggest this also because revelation is filled with symbols- wine of wrath? Women sitting on seven hills? third of the sea turned into blood? Lots of symbols in Revelation.
Gehenna refers to the Jerusalem rubbish dump- it was the valley of the son of Hinnom (Heb= Gai Ben Hennon)- hence the greek version is 'Gehenna'. Here the rubbish was burnt continually- it was the highest mark of shame to be buried there.
In Luke 16- Jesus mentioned a chasm where the rich man is tortured, and can see Lazarus 'in Abrahams bosom'. This was a Jewish myth that Jesus used for the sake of the argument- it was a parable. If it wasn't, I don't know what is! I would further say it's not real because Lazarus cannot be in Abrahams bosom; Abraham had not yet recieved his reward!!! (Heb 11:8,13,39-40)- he was rotting in the grave, like everyone else who died. also, if this was literal, how were they able to converse? Is hell in heaven? It reeks of Jewish mythology- and this not the only case in which mythology is referred to- Paul refers to a greek poem in Titus 1 which actually argues for the existence of Zeus! Jude also talked about the book of Enoch- which is a load of trash...
Now here are some further reason to do away with this fiery-pit-of-eternal-torture nonsense:
1) God's character is denied: an infinite punishment for finite sins? Why would God want to condemn the vast majority of all who have ever lived to torture? What would you think of someone who tortured a criminal for a week? let alone a bunch of non-criminals, good people and children? Why would God specifically forget about the idea of a grave, and go to the effort of creating a fiery torture pit?
2) Hell originated from paganism- this is an easy fact to google- and is one of the many pagan beliefs that a lot of Christians hold nowadays. (you can't appeal to the majority; Matt 7:13-14).
3) Psalm 141:7- our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth- this is the same hebrew word as 'Sheol'- so what is this verse saying about hell? A place where you will find scattered bones.
4) Eccl 9:10- "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave"- again, the same 'sheol' word otherwise translated as hell. This verse makes nonsense about a fire-pit of eternal torture.
5) The faithful men of old have not received their reward (Heb 11:39-40)- they're rotting in the grave. Does this mean they are being tortured all this time?
6) If we tortured forever, immortality would not be dependant upon belief in Jesus (Jn 6:40; 11:25; 3:16,36) nor would it only be for the righteous (Rom 2:6-8), nor would it be a gift (Rom 6:23).
And that is why I don't believe in hell.
Quote:For the record, I don't want to live forever in any sense. I want to be dead when I die - I find that a comforting thought.Well I'm happy to say you're not going to hell.
I'm kinda busy and don't have much time for these forums, so if you respond to this post, don't expect me to reply immediately- but I will try to get back to you sometime.
