How do you know being a Christian is the same as following pagan Gods? What evidence do you have for that? Only the timid presupposition that perhaps Christianity is not much different from other religions.

You can't prove that, and you won't even try to. You will respond back and ask for evidence, on your terms. You will set the terms of debate and make up you own fallacies like "No True Scottsman" and then wonder why no one can prove God exists based on the phoney terms that you setup to justify your presuppositions.

You can't prove anything about my religious experience, you don't know it, you can't know it, you can only guess. But you will be much more arrogant in dismissing religion than most will be about dismissing atheism. That is the nature of atheism, the atheist is epistemologically modest, meaning he makes fun of beliefs he thinks probably don't exist. That is epistemological modesty, right there.

I don't need to ask for evidence.
I don't even need to doubt your experiences, but I will ask a question.

Whilst you say you have had experiences with your God. People from other faiths will say that they have had experiences with their God.
Experiences don't prove anything - especially when somebody of an opposing belief has the same one with regards to their belief.

What if there was a way to reconcile the beliefs together some other way. For instance, there are angels and demons that have certain spiritual characteristics that reveal some things to people, and people interact with these spirits which are controlled by spiritual laws that interact with people. I have personally seem God show me how people reap what they sow, and it is possible to open doors to different spiritual forces to release things in the spiritual world.

The Christian faith can explain religious experience in other faiths, those faiths increase the explanatory power of Christianity, not decrease it.

If a god is to be accepted, it needs to be self-evident, given that, thus far, no amount of experimentation has yielded any god.
In order for it to be self-evident, everyone must have the same kind of experience. And I mean literally everyone! Like the experience we have of gravity. Gravity exists, no one questions that.
This all to say that an individual's experience isn't worth anything to another individual (or shouldn't), unless the other can have the same experience.
If your god can bring forth such wonderful experiences, then I just can't wait for it to give them to me as well..... and to all human beings. Thus far, it hasn't provided such experiences... and I'm sure as heck not going out of my way to convince myself that I can have them, so that I will then interpret anything as such experiences.
I'm impartial, and will remain impartial. People will never sway me towards any god with their words and experiences. Only god can do that... and, so far, I've seen nothing.

Alright, so if we assume that they are 'false spirits' in the sense that they are bad and deceitful - how is it that they can affect people born straight into religions other than Christianity? Does your God allow this?

(April 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If a god is to be accepted, it needs to be self-evident, given that, thus far, no amount of experimentation has yielded any god.
In order for it to be self-evident, everyone must have the same kind of experience. And I mean literally everyone! Like the experience we have of gravity. Gravity exists, no one questions that.
This all to say that an individual's experience isn't worth anything to another individual (or shouldn't), unless the other can have the same experience.
If your god can bring forth such wonderful experiences, then I just can't wait for it to give them to me as well..... and to all human beings. Thus far, it hasn't provided such experiences... and I'm sure as heck not going out of my way to convince myself that I can have them, so that I will then interpret anything as such experiences.
I'm impartial, and will remain impartial. People will never sway me towards any god with their words and experiences. Only god can do that... and, so far, I've seen nothing.

Why does God have to be self evident to you without seriously seeking Him? What is that based on? That statement is not clear to me.

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(April 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Joel Wrote: Alright, so if we assume that they are 'false spirits' in the sense that they are bad and deceitful - how is it that they can affect people born straight into religions other than Christianity? Does your God allow this?

Because the spirits stay inside of people. Yes, God does allow this. People can suffer many things on the earth and be deceived. But not necessarily everything that the spirits say is false. In the Bible, God uses a pagan prophet, Balaam to bless Israel. God also recognizes the reality of the pagan magicians in Greece as well the fortune teller possessed by a spirit in the book of Acts.

In the end, God will judge all peoples, and God will be fair to all people. God allows people to to be born into cults and things like this but in the end everyone chooses whether to "look to me, all the ends of the earth, and be ye saved" (Isa 45:22)

Romans also talks about people being able to discern between light and darkness, whether they have the law or not.

I think it is also possible that God could use evil spirits or unclean spirits to teach people things. I think that when many people that may have had some sort of experience of God in another faith that may not be legitimate, that it, came from the Holy Spirit, I do not necessarily thing they are condemned, if they practice a form of religion where they acknowledge God and obey something similar to the 10 commandments or follow God.

God is fair to everyone. Mystical experience in other religions is complicated, but it does not conflict with Christianity, it supports Christian claims. The similarities between the different enduring religious traditions are deep, and interesting. They serve to strengthen Christian claims.

The fact that many of the primitive religions, idol worshipping societiies, people that practiced human sacrifice, etc, have died out, and by far the most influential civilizations have come from monotheists serves to bolster the claims of Christianity.

The fact that there is some minor sect of idolaters does not disagree refute Christian claims, but the fact that most people in the world are not idolaters or practice a diverse form of religion but follow the God of Abraham is furthur evidence for Christian claims, and other such as Buddhist and Hindu's have other similarities with Christianity, which are deeper than just a man worshipping a piece of stone or practicing voodoo.

I don't recall ever having to "seriously seek the sun" for it's existence to become self-evident. Special pleading.

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(April 2, 2013 at 12:26 pm)jstrodel Wrote: The fact that many of the primitive religions, idol worshipping societiies, people that practiced human sacrifice, etc, have died out, and by far the most influential civilizations have come from monotheists serves to bolster the claims of Christianity.

Hardly, you idol worshipping - human sacrificing - christians are still around. The most influential civilizations? LOL, you're gonna stick with that, that's cute.

(April 2, 2013 at 12:19 pm)jstrodel Wrote: What if there was a way to reconcile the beliefs together some other way. For instance, there are angels and demons that have certain spiritual characteristics that reveal some things to people, and people interact with these spirits which are controlled by spiritual laws that interact with people.

That's a nice ad hoc, 'just so' story you have there. Got any REAL evidence to support it?

Quote:The Christian faith can explain religious experience in other faiths, those faiths increase the explanatory power of Christianity, not decrease it.

Interesting...

I've heard Muslims make the exact same claim. And they seem to have the same amount of evidence that you have.

Strodel, it seems you're missing the point.
When many other religions make the same claims as you're making; how can you show that yours is true and the others are not?

Because it benefits me