(April 2, 2013 at 3:36 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Because it benefits me

In what way?

(April 2, 2013 at 12:06 pm)jstrodel Wrote: How do you know being a Christian is the same as following pagan Gods?

When one studies the history of religion, one learns that Christianity basically created itself from the pagan customs that were in existence at that time. It was initially meant as a way to make conversion from paganism to Christianity easier. Christianity was not the first culture to have a god born of a virgin birth, who was sacrificed and died, and then who rose from the dead three days later. Christianity is not unique in its lore, Christianity copied other lore, but Christianity deems it is the only truth despite countless lore having existed before it did.

Christianity used pre-existing 'lore' to make it's perfect 'lore'.

(April 2, 2013 at 3:59 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Christianity used pre-existing 'lore' to make it's perfect 'lore'.

Obviously not God-given, then.

If God given = representing God most accurately then yes. I don't think anyone could deny the pre-existent influences and practices. The language and symbolism which evolved to describe God.

(April 2, 2013 at 12:26 pm)jstrodel Wrote:

(April 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If a god is to be accepted, it needs to be self-evident, given that, thus far, no amount of experimentation has yielded any god.
In order for it to be self-evident, everyone must have the same kind of experience. And I mean literally everyone! Like the experience we have of gravity. Gravity exists, no one questions that.
This all to say that an individual's experience isn't worth anything to another individual (or shouldn't), unless the other can have the same experience.
If your god can bring forth such wonderful experiences, then I just can't wait for it to give them to me as well..... and to all human beings. Thus far, it hasn't provided such experiences... and I'm sure as heck not going out of my way to convince myself that I can have them, so that I will then interpret anything as such experiences.
I'm impartial, and will remain impartial. People will never sway me towards any god with their words and experiences. Only god can do that... and, so far, I've seen nothing.

Why does God have to be self evident to you without seriously seeking Him? What is that based on? That statement is not clear to me.

Yeah... that's because you're trapped by the requirement of faith in order to accept a god.
Me, on the other hand, realizing that, somewhere in the distant past, either a god (or gods) DID have direct contact with a few select ignorant people, or those people invented said god(s), have no such baggage.
If it was invented, case closed, atheism is the correct approach.
If there was contact, then I expect equal contact with everyone... however, I see no such thing, so.... people have to resort to faith. But I refuse to resort to faith on such an important matter.
I refuse to accept the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who... I think you see where this is going...

So god does not contact everyone, you have to seek it out. If _I seek out this non-corporeal entity, hoe do I do that? Which tools do I employ on such endeavor? Like I said earlier, no amount of scientific testing has yet yielded any divine entity.
Through wanting it to be there? and then finding that I become convinced that it is there?
Is this circular reasoning, or am I seeing things?

I was raised as a Christian without much of a solid education in the faith. When I questioned that faith, I found many skeptical objections applied to my shallow beliefs. So I became an atheist and continued to study philosophy/theology. After a time I realized that my initial objections to the Christian faith we themselves quite shallow and lacked rigor. I always felt there was a missing piece. I did not and still do not believe that physical reduction adequately address the stuff that life is made out of: meaning, experience, truth, and values. I did not assume that thinking about these things required a God, much less a Christian God, nor did anything exclude God. Continue studying, but now the existence of God became a reasonable possibility.

Meanwhile back on the ranch, I developed some bad thinking habits and became prone to making very poor jugdments. Some of these stemmed from disbelief. I also had a minor mystical experience that confirmed some of my philosophical speculations. That prompted me to delve deeper into Swedenborg’s theology. It was a good match. My thinking about certain thought problems became more clear and I learned to resolve some of the doctrinal difficulties that prompted my initial loss of faith. But more importantly, I started to experience the victory promised by Christ.

(April 2, 2013 at 3:45 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote:

(April 2, 2013 at 12:06 pm)jstrodel Wrote: How do you know being a Christian is the same as following pagan Gods?

When one studies the history of religion, one learns that Christianity basically created itself from the pagan customs that were in existence at that time. It was initially meant as a way to make conversion from paganism to Christianity easier. Christianity was not the first culture to have a god born of a virgin birth, who was sacrificed and died, and then who rose from the dead three days later. Christianity is not unique in its lore, Christianity copied other lore, but Christianity deems it is the only truth despite countless lore having existed before it did.

You mean, when one studies the history of religion reading a 200 page paperback that was written by an atheist.

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(April 2, 2013 at 4:30 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(April 2, 2013 at 12:26 pm)jstrodel Wrote: Why does God have to be self evident to you without seriously seeking Him? What is that based on? That statement is not clear to me.

Yeah... that's because you're trapped by the requirement of faith in order to accept a god.
Me, on the other hand, realizing that, somewhere in the distant past, either a god (or gods) DID have direct contact with a few select ignorant people, or those people invented said god(s), have no such baggage.
If it was invented, case closed, atheism is the correct approach.
If there was contact, then I expect equal contact with everyone... however, I see no such thing, so.... people have to resort to faith. But I refuse to resort to faith on such an important matter.
I refuse to accept the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who accepted the word of some other person, who... I think you see where this is going...

So god does not contact everyone, you have to seek it out. If _I seek out this non-corporeal entity, hoe do I do that? Which tools do I employ on such endeavor? Like I said earlier, no amount of scientific testing has yet yielded any divine entity.
Through wanting it to be there? and then finding that I become convinced that it is there?
Is this circular reasoning, or am I seeing things?

To seek God, examine your life, reflect on what the meaning of life is, what your nature is, how you have failed God, come to God and humble yourself and listen to God. Come ready to see how you have failed God and where God has a space to show you how your life needs to change. Read the Bible and ask God to reveal God's way to you. Don't read it to disprove it, read it like you are ready to repent of your sins and follow whatever verses the Holy Spirit will direct you towards.

You don't have to decide immediately that you are completely committed to God, just read it with your heart open, aware that you are not as great of a person as you could have been, ready to change your life.

You have to understand, God is very, very angry at you. God will reveal God's nature to you, but you have to be humble and listen. Does not mean you have to accept every Christian belief right off the bat.

God will not reveal God's nature to proud people or people that are just looking to spit in God's face and disprove God. You must come humbly and listen.

(April 2, 2013 at 6:29 pm)jstrodel Wrote: You mean, when one studies the history of religion reading a 200 page paperback that was written by an atheist.

As in someone who actually has a degree in theology.

You have a degree in theology? From where? Who did you study under? I don't believe it.