(April 4, 2013 at 11:07 am)futilethewinds Wrote: I have pride in being gay, too, it doesn't mean I chose to be gay.

I guess I never fully understood 'gay pride.' Maybe expressing one's homosexual proclivities is a challenge in a dominantly heterosexual culture. I suppose overcoming that challenge could be a source of pride. Then again, I cannot image someone being proud of coming out as a foot-fetishist.

Here's the thing: I don't choose to believe a thing. However, I can choose to research it to the best of my ability in order to inform the assumptions I make which fuel beliefs.

Ahh well, I don't think we can prove either way. I don't think the fact we can't just decide to believe in something in any given moment, doesn't mean there is no over all struggle for choice in the matter and that we make choices when we reach boiling points (different factors influence us and we give in or don't, positive or negative).

(April 4, 2013 at 11:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote: 1) I believe humans in general believe in free-will. 2) Therefore humans in general know we have free-will. 3) Therefore free-will is true.

I don't think a formal proof is required. Freewill is axiomatic. If you do not have freewill, then logical thinking and judgement are irrelevant, even with respect to one's judgment of free-will versus determinism.

(April 4, 2013 at 11:38 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Here's the thing: I don't choose to believe a thing. However, I can choose to research it to the best of my ability in order to inform the assumptions I make which fuel beliefs.

But perhaps you reach boiling points. You face emotions. For example, if there is a soul, which for all we know there is, you can prefer a certain belief over another for various factors...and then there is a choice if you become sincere to the truth and prefer the rational one over the one you like. There can be will power. (I say "a soul" because to me, I can't rationally justify free-will as possible from naturalism perspective and the evidence points the other way.)

I think Atheists should be proud of their Atheism if they believe they did the honest decision (ie. it's praiseworthy).

(April 4, 2013 at 11:39 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Ahh well, I don't think we can prove either way.

Which would be troubling, if you were the kind of person who was willing to state that belief was a choice. If I'm understanding you correctly, that's not who you are. Instead it's something more like "People believe that they can choose their beliefs". Equally as unsatisfying for obvious reasons.

Quote: for I don't think the fact we can't just decide to believe in something in any given moment, doesn't mean there is no over all struggle for choice in the matter and that we make choices when we reach boiling points (different factors influence us and we give in or don't, positive or negative).

Ah, but if someone -could- do that, it would make for a hell of a case that belief was a choice - wouldn't it? I mean, we could go back and forth (like we have for centuries) about free will and beliefs - or, we could just cut to the money shot and find someone who is capable of demonstrating that they've made that choice..eh? Personally, after having been on these forums just a little while, and hearing this chant so often - I'm beyond the point of bickering with most. Pics or it didn't happen, essentially. I'm tired of watching the faithful jack their dicks while telling me how glorious it's going to be when they finally blow their load.

(April 4, 2013 at 11:41 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(April 4, 2013 at 11:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote: 1) I believe humans in general believe in free-will. 2) Therefore humans in general know we have free-will. 3) Therefore free-will is true.

I don't think a formal proof is required. Freewill is axiomatic. If you do not have freewill, then logical thinking and judgement are irrelevant, even with respect to one's judgment of free-will versus determinism.

They are irrelevant as far as worthwhile purpose goes, but they would not become irrelevant in determining the truth.

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(April 4, 2013 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: Ah, but if someone -could- do that, it would make for a hell of a case that belief was a choice - wouldn't it? I mean, we could go back and forth (like we have for centuries) about free will and beliefs - or, we could just cut to the money shot and find someone who is capable of demonstrating that they've made that choice..eh? Personally, after having been on these forums just a little while, and hearing this chant so often - I'm beyond the point of bickering with most. Pics or it didn't happen, essentially.

From a designed world perspective, what's the point of making decisions in a vacuum with no factors influencing you? Then you can't praise an action or condemn action either.

So to be praiseworthy or condemnable, there has to be various factors influencing you, and you can't simply decide in a vacuum.

Meh, whether or not a choice can be said to be praiseworthy (or if there was any point in making one) would be something I'd address after it was established that there was any choice to consider. Skipping step 1 is going to make steps 2 through - 200 suspect.

kips step 1:
-strokes furiously-
:calls the unspoken contents of step 1 a "conclusion":

Well, what I'm saying is that from designed world perspective with free-will, it's better our decisions are influenced by factors most of the time. That we can't just make any decision in a vacuum.

If this is true, then we shouldn't really expect to be able to change our beliefs without factors influencing us. That means the timing is not totally in our control, but rather we will reach points where we make decisions based on those various factors.

So, with the massive and completely mystifying assumption of a designed world (and the implication that the designed world is somehow a test tube or sounding grounds for a morality or way of valuing things that you have not expressed) - and assuming free-will, or choice....then it would be "better" if we had factors influencing our "choice" - and you offer this as an excuse for why no one seems to be able to demonstrate this choice?

.....................

Here I am just asking someone to demonstrate a choice in their beliefs......while you invent worlds to allow for them - immediately followed by an excuse for why you won't be able to demonstrate them. I think I like my way better Mystic.

(iow, you're flirting with an attempt to manufacture an unfalsifiable position)