I would contest it, but it comes from you.

Which makes it incontestable? You flatterer.

(April 10, 2013 at 12:12 pm)Tex Wrote:

cinjin Wrote:Greasy sophistry. There is no sacrifice. For fucks sake, Jesus didn't even get a single bone broken in his body! What a joke. As if being spit on, heckled, or god-forbid, betrayed by a friend can count as a sacrifice worthy of saving the entire human race, let alone a death that doesn't even last for a full three days. Cast Jesus into Hell for a trillion years and maybe I'll consider his actions worthy of the term, sacrifice.

I'm glad you read what I wrote... Remember the part where I said, "If this was all just physical, I'm sure people have had things worse, but this is not just about pain sensors or psychological damage."

You imply that I didn't read what you wrote. I did. I read it, considered it and then determined it to be bunk.
This is why: If sacrifice is not necessarily limited to physical pain or psychological damage then how, pray tell, can it possibly be considered a sacrifice? If nothing is proffered, than nothing can be accepted.

Jesus didn't die. Dead people stay dead. He likely didn't suffer at all thanks to his supposed divine powers, and floating into the sky while people worship you isn't exactly a dire fate for anyone to suffer.

Dictionary.com Wrote:Definition of sac·ri·fice [sak-ruh-fahys]
noun
1.
the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2.
the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3.
the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.
4.
the thing so surrendered or devoted.
5.
a loss incurred in selling something below its value.

Now that you've read the definition of a sacrifice I again ask you, where is this supposed sacrifice? You just admitted that he may not have felt pain or psychological damage, and since he didn't actually die, but rather took a nap ... where is this great sacrifice??

Point of fact: Whenever your god demanded a sacrifice anywhere else - something was going to die... and you can be damn sure whatever it was wasn't coming back.

Cinjin Wrote:You imply that I didn't read what you wrote. I did. I read it, considered it and then determined it to be bunk.

Then I apologize for the hasty assumption.

Cinjin Wrote:If sacrifice is not necessarily limited to physical pain or psychological damage then how, pray tell, can it possibly be considered a sacrifice? If nothing is proffered, than nothing can be accepted.

I believe this is where we differ. The whole point of Christ was to lower himself from God to man. We call this the humiliation and this is why he's often called Godman by the church fathers. Then, after lowered himself, he taught up until he died. He died just like every other human dies, but the Father applied the tortures we deserve for our misdeeds (non-physical). In this way, we receive no punishment for our insults to God and we too are resurrected like him. So, much was proffered, but the debt was paid.

Cinjin Wrote:Dead people stay dead.

The entire point of the New Testament is to refute this statement. Even more so, dead people still exist.

Cinjin Wrote:Now that you've read the definition of a sacrifice I again ask you, where is this supposed sacrifice?

I do think he actually died. Legit human-styled dead. I also think he suffered physically at the hands of people and not-so-physically suffered for everyone's inequity. Finally, I think that definitions 1-4 accurately portray the event.

Cinjin Wrote:Point of fact: Whenever your god demanded a sacrifice anywhere else - something was going to die... and you can be damn sure whatever it was wasn't coming back.

True. He's always commanded the sacrifice to be loss from the person, usually from their cash deposits or flocks. To repay the debt ourselves, we'd all actually have to die and then we would have to raise ourselves up from the grave (which wouldn't happen). Instead, Jesus submits himself to death with no faults. Because he took our faults, we have no more debt. Because he had no faults himself, he rose, and will raise us.

(April 10, 2013 at 10:47 pm)Tex Wrote:

Cinjin Wrote:If sacrifice is not necessarily limited to physical pain or psychological damage then how, pray tell, can it possibly be considered a sacrifice? If nothing is proffered, than nothing can be accepted.

I believe this is where we differ. The whole point of Christ was to lower himself from God to man. We call this the humiliation and this is why he's often called Godman by the church fathers. Then, after lowered himself, he taught up until he died. He died just like every other human dies, but the Father applied the tortures we deserve for our misdeeds (non-physical). In this way, we receive no punishment for our insults to God and we too are resurrected like him. So, much was proffered, but the debt was paid.

So now a sacrifice is merely lowering yourself to hang out with your own creations? Hmm, we were supposedly made in the image of god and yet the godboy was somehow humiliated to be one of us??? I call bull shit. Jesus was one of us his whole life. Even with all his powers, he was well accustomed to hanging out with the refuse of society, and yet somehow he suddenly felt humiliated to be a human?? Do you have a bridge to sell me too? And while we're at it, if he supposedly was brought down to us lowly human's level than he would've BEEN a human, which means: he should've STAYED DEAD. Oh that's right, he didn't, therefore (and in addition to his life lived as a common lowly man), since he was never really human your humiliation point is invalid. Nope, I still see no sacrifice. Not dead. Not human, not humiliated, and little to no human suffering. The definition of the word sacrifice has not been met on any level. I've never even read of jesus crying out in pain during the whole alleged ordeal - which means that you can't prove to me that he even suffered at all that day.

Tex Wrote:

Cinjin Wrote:Point of fact: Whenever your god demanded a sacrifice anywhere else - something was going to die... and you can be damn sure whatever it was wasn't coming back.

True. He's always commanded the sacrifice to be loss from the person, usually from their cash deposits or flocks. To repay the debt ourselves, we'd all actually have to die and then we would have to raise ourselves up from the grave (which wouldn't happen). Instead, Jesus submits himself to death with no faults. Because he took our faults, we have no more debt. Because he had no faults himself, he rose, and will raise us.

Classic 'Do as I say and not as I do' from the big guy upstairs huh? In every single other instance the sacrifice required is permanent.
Jesus lost NOTHING. He gave NOTHING. He went to heaven to rule as a King. Sorry pal, none of those 5 definitions of sacrifice were met. Hell, nevermind the definition in the dictionary - what's worse is the standard of sacrifice that your own god set forth wasn't even met.


It's almost as if the whole thing was a poorly written work of fiction.

If everything is paid off, there is no more 'debt' to God, why does he continue to insist that people enslave themselves to him unless we want to spend eternity roasting in hell forever?

That isn't a paid debt. If it was, we would be free to do, think, act, and live however we please. God has merely sold humanity on one of those debt consolidation scams you hear advertised during Jerry Springer.

It takes a truly unhinged mind to believe this is a good thing for anyone except the guy running the con, but it also takes a truly unhinged mind to think that people deserve torture for following the human nature God programmed into everyone, so it's not really a surprise.

Even if God was real, he could take his salvation and stick it up his psychopathic ass. If he is all-knowing and all-powerful, then he is all-responsible for every single bad thing which happens in this world, which Spider-Man could attest to (and, as we all know, Spider-Man is every bit as real as God). God must have invented apologists so that he could convince his victims to blame themselves for everything he does to them.

Sacrifice is a pussy's way out of accountability.
"Sorry I got caught stealing that calculator, I'll kill a puppy to make up for it, k?" < fuck that shit...
.

I would also call bullshit if "...now a sacrifice is merely lowering yourself to hang out with your own creations", "...he was never really human...", and if "Jesus lost NOTHING. He gave NOTHING". But, these are all false. The sacrifice included "lowering", but that isn't enough. Actually, dying isn't enough either. It's the extra suffering applied by the Father for our sakes that seals the deal. He was actually human, with all of our inclinations, desires, and whatnot. If he wasn't he didn't make up for our sins. He needs to literally be one of us to redeem us. Finally, he did have suffering, and this redeems us.

Cinjin Wrote:I've never even read of jesus crying out in pain during the whole alleged ordeal - which means that you can't prove to me that he even suffered at all that day.

This one is more evident in scriptures than most.

Luke 19:41
And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it...

John 11:34-36
And he said, “Where have you laid him (Lazarus, friend of Jesus, recently died)?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” Jesus wept. So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

And then the big one, Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

The last one is on the cross, quoting Psalm 22:1. This is his greatest cry of anguish.

Jeremiah 7:21-23 (KJV)

21 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Tex Wrote:He needs to literally be one of us to redeem us.

The all-knowing and all-powerful creator of the universe can think of no better way to save mankind from the sins he is responsible for than to put on a stupid and tacky bit of theater like that?