What Sacrifice ?

[Tex]

1. How would you know that?

It is a part of the religion that we are assuming in this thread. However, it's not really complex guess work. There are two options, the source of Good, Order, Beauty, Truth, and Being has favor is upon you (although unmerited) and you get Good Order, Beauty, Truth, and Being, or the source of Good, Order, Beauty, Truth, and Being does not have favor upon you and you do not get Good, Order, Beauty, Truth, or Being. Instead, you get Evil, Chaos, Horrors, Lies, and Isolation. I, being a super-duper awesome analyzer of opposites, would say the first grouping is good, and the second bad.

2. How would you know that?

Eyewitness accounts, mostly. They spread the news, the wrote, then kept spreading. Romans thought they were a danger to the empire because of such rapid expansion. More evidence than for the existence of Cleopatra or Socrates.

3. And how would you know all that?
Why the Jesuits? Why is it that christians (and practically all other religions) want to reach out and let everyone know about this religion?

I explained how I know that in what you quoted. There are "transcendentals" that God literally is. A reverence of Order is a reverence of God. And I am surprised you know how the Jesuits work, but I am not even Catholic. However, the Jesuits are correct here. There is no reason why we should limit God to only being able to do work in the way we are accustomed to. I'm not saying that this indirect reverence works 100%, but I will say this is another way my God can save. Knowing my God, I believe he uses it as often as he can. Knowing people, I doubt he can use it often. Therefore, since this is an indirect way of worship, evangelization is good because it can bring about a more full worship of God.

I meant people. Why is it that people have to keep convincing other people about the existence of this divinity?
If only the deity could handle that part...

Oh, that makes more sense. God doesn't "require" people, but yes, he strictly uses people. Catholics will say some saints will show up to people, but I don't buy that. There are no more dramatic miracles (God talking or some superpower or another) because that isn't supposed to be the base of faith. The knowledge of God's existence does not save a single person. God could have angels sing about the good things he's doing for us every day, and that would not save a single person. No one would deny God's existence, but faith is not existence. It's a relationship (a trust at the most basic of levels).

5. I don't see how your reply follows from my question, but ok.... I must be in some sleep deprived state...

Belief is required because it is the most basic connection we can have with God. It gives him something to work with.

YHWH is not my god.... I have no god. Even if there was only one god, the concept of "having a god" shouldn't make any sense.... but humans have different opinions about the divine entities, leading to "having" different gods... clearly a man-made proposition, no?

You have a God in the same way that you have a father. This probably isn't what you're speaking about. Ya, there are lots of "gods". That's even recorded in the bible. Worshiping things that are not God is idolatry. What we claim, just like they do, is that our God is the one that actually exists. They "have" what they have made (idea, wooden statue, etc.) and we "have" what made us.

Well, I think the workings of our brains are deterministic, being heavily based on genetics, upbringing and any information that arrives to them at every moment of our lives. With all the billions of neurons and possible connections between them, we are left with a brain as a very complex machine, which leads to the appearance of what you call "free will", or "soul" as a separate entity from the brain itself.

The workings of our brains are largely deterministic. Light goes in eyes, data is collected, and the neurons transfer the data everywhere. I discussed one of my reasons for all animals having souls on another thread, but If you wanna start a free will vs determinism thread I'll chime in.

[Baalzebutt]

You have a God in the same way that you have a father. This probably isn't what you're speaking about. Ya, there are lots of "gods". That's even recorded in the bible. Worshiping things that are not God is idolatry. What we claim, just like they do, is that our God is the one that actually exists. They "have" what they have made (idea, wooden statue, etc.) and we "have" what made us.

I have to jump in here.

This is about the fourth time I have seen you do this "You have a god, you just don't accept/believe in him" thing.

Please stop saying things like this. As atheists, WE DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR GOD EXISTS. I believe I made that abundantly clear in another post.

Your "oh, silly atheist, you just don't get it" approach to debate is both tiresome and rude. We don't believe, so stop trying to imply that we do.

[Tex]

I'm not actually doing that. I promise. I'm actually talking about other religions. I'm literally saying they do not claim our God to exist, and we claim their Gods don't exist. I'm not talking about atheists in the least bit. You don't believe our God exists either.

[Minimalist]

The Docetists, Manicheans, Sabellians, Gnostics, Arians, and all the other heresies were not held by those with education.

Oh, please...cut the fucking shit, will you. They were exterminated by your god-fearing xtians and their writings destroyed...except for Nag Hamadi which miraculously survived so that we all now know what a bunch of fucking liars the orthodox xtians were.

Yeah...if I want to see what any particular group thinks I will instantly choose the writings of the group which exterminated them. Get real.

[Ryantology]

The Docetists, Manicheans, Sabellians, Gnostics, Arians, and all the other heresies were not held by those with education.

More to the point, they were not held by those with power and money and the means to inflict mass murder on their competitors.

[Baalzebutt]

I'm not actually doing that. I promise. I'm actually talking about other religions. I'm literally saying they do not claim our God to exist, and we claim their Gods don't exist. I'm not talking about atheists in the least bit. You don't believe our God exists either.

Really??

You have a God in the same way that you have a father..

Then what is that? Since you were addressing an atheist, I am guessing you were addressing an atheist.

This isn't even a roundabout way of hinting that we know god exists but refuse to accept it. It is outright saying it. Your position is indefensible so stop trying to defend it.

And stop telling us what we believe.

[pocaracas]

1. How would you know that?

It is a part of the religion that we are assuming in this thread.

Oh yeah... I sometimes forget we're playing make belief... sorry about that.

2. How would you know that?

Eyewitness accounts, mostly. They spread the news, the wrote, then kept spreading. Romans thought they were a danger to the empire because of such rapid expansion. More evidence than for the existence of Cleopatra or Socrates.

yeah... about those eyewitness accounts.
I'm not a scholar, nor do I know a lot about the bible, but there a few people around here who question the origin of those accounts...
I don't know, maybe there was a J.C., but the written accounts ended up exaggerating some of the things the man did...

3. And how would you know all that?
Why the Jesuits? Why is it that christians (and practically all other religions) want to reach out and let everyone know about this religion?

I explained how I know that in what you quoted. There are "transcendentals" that God literally is. A reverence of Order is a reverence of God. And I am surprised you know how the Jesuits work, but I am not even Catholic. However, the Jesuits are correct here. There is no reason why we should limit God to only being able to do work in the way we are accustomed to. I'm not saying that this indirect reverence works 100%, but I will say this is another way my God can save. Knowing my God, I believe he uses it as often as he can. Knowing people, I doubt he can use it often. Therefore, since this is an indirect way of worship, evangelization is good because it can bring about a more full worship of God.

I see it as gathering more people to the cult, so as to have more positive reinforcement of the notion that has no physical evidence.... If you see enough people believing the same thing, you end up accepting it easily.

I meant people. Why is it that people have to keep convincing other people about the existence of this divinity?
If only the deity could handle that part...

Oh, that makes more sense. God doesn't "require" people, but yes, he strictly uses people. Catholics will say some saints will show up to people, but I don't buy that. There are no more dramatic miracles (God talking or some superpower or another) because that isn't supposed to be the base of faith. The knowledge of God's existence does not save a single person. God could have angels sing about the good things he's doing for us every day, and that would not save a single person. No one would deny God's existence, but faith is not existence. It's a relationship (a trust at the most basic of levels).

Sooo... why is it that the holy book essentially has accounts of those miracles?
Why is it that those accounts concern people who, allegedly, had first hand knowledge of that god, but we don't need it?

5. I don't see how your reply follows from my question, but ok.... I must be in some sleep deprived state...

Belief is required because it is the most basic connection we can have with God. It gives him something to work with.

Hundreds of thousands of years ago, mankind knew nothing about the christian god.
How did it work with them?

YHWH is not my god.... I have no god. Even if there was only one god, the concept of "having a god" shouldn't make any sense.... but humans have different opinions about the divine entities, leading to "having" different gods... clearly a man-made proposition, no?

You have a God in the same way that you have a father. This probably isn't what you're speaking about. Ya, there are lots of "gods". That's even recorded in the bible. Worshiping things that are not God is idolatry. What we claim, just like they do, is that our God is the one that actually exists. They "have" what they have made (idea, wooden statue, etc.) and we "have" what made us.

Aye, you claim yours is the one that actually exists.
So do and did all other religions and cults.
What makes your so real, given that all we see it working with is people's faith?

Well, I think the workings of our brains are deterministic, being heavily based on genetics, upbringing and any information that arrives to them at every moment of our lives. With all the billions of neurons and possible connections between them, we are left with a brain as a very complex machine, which leads to the appearance of what you call "free will", or "soul" as a separate entity from the brain itself.

The workings of our brains are largely deterministic. Light goes in eyes, data is collected, and the neurons transfer the data everywhere. I discussed one of my reasons for all animals having souls on another thread, but If you wanna start a free will vs determinism thread I'll chime in.

That's been done to death in this forum... over and over again. No need for another thread on the same subject:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-14995-p...#pid344211

https://atheistforums.org/thread-14455-p...#pid330788

You may notice a common theme on my questions...

[Tex]

Here is my prediction: You are making a willful choice for hell because you have heard the word of god and chose not to believe it. Therefore, you have chosen not to accept god which is the same as choosing to go to hell.

Very close, but no cigar.

Please, don't tell me what I would or wouldn't dismiss. It's a pet-peeve of mine.

Sorry about that. I got a more Rhythm-like impression from you at first. Perhaps I was mistaken.

Yes, we are assuming Christianity, but that doesn't explain how someone who doesn't believe is making a willful choice to go to hell. I am actually interested in your answer.

The Christian word, "belief" or "faith" today means either emotional response toward God or knowledge of existence of God. I hold to none of these. Emotions are bodily and can be caused by all sorts of opiates. This is not faith. Knowledge does not grant faith either. You don't have more faith because you know more about Jesus or have the correct belief about doctrine. All saved are equally saved. This, too, is not faith. Faith is the trust in God, and you only need "a mustard seed's" worth to make use of it. This is what saves. Not knowledge. Not how loud you can sing.

You can believe that there is no God here and still be saved. You can believe homosexuality isn't a sin and still be saved. You can have all of these beliefs, and, even if wrong, that's not enough to keep you out of heaven. What does is pride/stubbornness. Any tiny bit of "I know better" or "That isn't my way of life" or "I deserve this" is sin, but more importantly is they won't let go of the sin. Instead, the sin has become their identity. The sin is eternal, and that is why there is "eternal damnation". It isn't because God forces it, but the person like's their sin more than God. God allows this, and gives them a place to be. This place is called "hell" not because God tortures them in fire and flames and laughs as he's doing it, but because God's way is best, and no one here lives God's way.

---

I'm not actually doing that. I promise. I'm actually talking about other religions. I'm literally saying they do not claim our God to exist, and we claim their Gods don't exist. I'm not talking about atheists in the least bit. You don't believe our God exists either.

Really??

You have a God in the same way that you have a father..

Then what is that? Since you were addressing an atheist, I am guessing you were addressing an atheist.

This isn't even a roundabout way of hinting that we know god exists but refuse to accept it. It is outright saying it. Your position is indefensible so stop trying to defend it.

And stop telling us what we believe.

Ugh, not even close to what I was talking about.

"you have a God in the same way you have a father" does not mean "Baalzebutt has a God, he just doesn't know it". I was speaking about possession. No one "has" a God. But, we also use "have" a father. I thought that's what you were talking about in posts past. That post was about how people "have" gods.

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The Docetists, Manicheans, Sabellians, Gnostics, Arians, and all the other heresies were not held by those with education.

More to the point, they were not held by those with power and money and the means to inflict mass murder on their competitors.

Believe what you'd like, Ryan.

---

The Docetists, Manicheans, Sabellians, Gnostics, Arians, and all the other heresies were not held by those with education.

Oh, please...cut the fucking shit, will you. They were exterminated by your god-fearing xtians and their writings destroyed...except for Nag Hamadi which miraculously survived so that we all now know what a bunch of fucking liars the orthodox xtians were.

Yeah...if I want to see what any particular group thinks I will instantly choose the writings of the group which exterminated them. Get real.

Totally what happened. You are so smart. I wish I was as smart as you. You know so much. I am so jealous of your ability to reason. Most of all, I'm amazed at your ability to judge things objectively.

---

...that has no physical evidence...

Am I supposed to shoot two gold atoms at each other and magically show you what you need to own for salvation? Salvation is not physical.

why is it that the holy book essentially has accounts of those miracles?

It has account of some. Those aren't all. Some don't happen to the Jews. Some aren't cool enough to record.

Hundreds of thousands of years ago, mankind knew nothing about the christian god.
How did it work with them?

The same way I have been describing. There are transcendentals that God literally is. Really, it's not that hard. Cain murdered his brother, Abel, out of jealousy. Cain was punished for this. However, no rule had been given that says, "Do not murder". That's because the rules don't need to be given. Equally, they don't have to "know" the Christian God directly. He is indirectly known by those who look.

What makes your so real, given that all we see it working with is people's faith?

Historical basis and logically coherency.

[The Grand Nudger]

This haters just straight hatin..lol. Hey Tex, got any evidence?

[Ryantology]

More to the point, they were not held by those with power and money and the means to inflict mass murder on their competitors.

Believe what you'd like, Ryan.

Do you dispute my point, or is this your way of admitting you cannot?