He didn't ask to murder. He asked to offer as a burnt offering. And God stopped Abraham from completing it. It was to test Abraham, not because God wanted to kill indiscriminately.

Yeah, it would have been murder. It was also just a story to show faith though, so no biggie...
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(April 15, 2013 at 6:25 pm)Tex Wrote: He didn't ask to murder. He asked to offer as a burnt offering.

You're splitting hairs. Completing the act would mean that Abraham intentionally killed Isaac at the command of Yahweh.

(April 15, 2013 at 6:25 pm)Tex Wrote: And God stopped Abraham from completing it. It was to test Abraham, not because God wanted to kill indiscriminately.

According to the story, an angel stopped Abraham from killing his son.

Your god is a dick.

(April 15, 2013 at 6:55 pm)catfish Wrote: Yeah, it would have been murder. It was also just a story to show faith though, so no biggie...

That's how I saw it. Later texts made me wonder why god did that. We're told that god can see into the hearts of men, which I took to mean that he could see our motivations and understand our mind. Which means that he didn't have to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, he knew that Abraham would've done so before he even asked. And Paul later writes that Abraham knew that Isaac was part of the lineage that would produce the nation of Israel, and that god could resurrect him.

So the story became one where god asked Abraham to sacrifice his son just for the sake of seeing if he had the stomach to kill him for kicks. The JWs saw the near-sacrifice of Isaac as a metaphor for the later sacrifice of Jesus. Which thus makes that sacrifice seem very creepy. And now I'm wondering why people seem to think that if you become an atheist, you suddenly have no moral center and might do all sorts of evil things.

(April 15, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Tonus Wrote: So the story became one where god asked Abraham to sacrifice his son just for the sake of seeing if he had the stomach to kill him for kicks.

And that raises the question for me: did Abraham pass the test or fail it?

(April 15, 2013 at 7:09 pm)Tonus Wrote: The JWs saw the near-sacrifice of Isaac as a metaphor for the later sacrifice of Jesus. Which thus makes that sacrifice seem very creepy. And now I'm wondering why people seem to think that if you become an atheist, you suddenly have no moral center and might do all sorts of evil things.

Good point.

Abraham and Isaac, hmmm...tough puzzle and probably the most perplexing and disturbing one of all. What strikes me about it is this. Child sacrifice was a practice found in Canaan. Abraham would not have been surprised that a typical god would make such a request. God's bait and switch seems to me like a way to 1) test Abraham's obedience, while at the same time 2) setting worship in a different direction and 3) revealing to Abraham the difference between the Lord and the gods of other nations. Those are just my thoughts...not terribly profound given the subject.

(April 15, 2013 at 8:37 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Abraham and Isaac, hmmm...tough puzzle and probably the most perplexing and disturbing one of all.

It is only a tough puzzle if you are incapable of admitting that you worship a psychotic and controlling asshole. Once you do that, the whole story makes perfect sense.

'Free Will', as Christians seem to understand it, is an invention by apologists to attempt to shift responsibility for everything that is not good in the world from the creator of everything to that creator's hapless victims.