On Non-belief

[Tex]

He didn't ask to murder. He asked to offer as a burnt offering. And God stopped Abraham from completing it. It was to test Abraham, not because God wanted to kill indiscriminately.

[catfish]

Yeah, it would have been murder. It was also just a story to show faith though, so no biggie...
.

[pocaracas]

How does all this measure up with the account of Abraham? You know, the guy that started all the "abrahamic" religions...

Abraham had more specific knowledge that was not the self-evident that is required. God revealed to him more. This isn't a problem, but nothing that God reveals actually increases Abraham's faith. The communication between God and Abraham didn't start Abraham's belief. The communication was given so that the world could be shaped in a particular way.

God revealed to a guy that was a believer anyway. He could reveal knowledge because it would be in accordance with Abraham's will rather than force it against itself.

What was it that Abraham believed in?
Why would he believe in that one particular deity, when it hadn't yet showed itself to anyone... except the 2 castaways... who came... how far before this Abraham character?
But, at the time, if we are to accept Archeology, there were other civilizations with other gods already ingrained into the people.... and lo and behold, one of those civilizations was in Mesopotamia, where lived the Summerians, Babylonians, Akkadians and Assyrians... and they had a polytheistic religion, where three gods were on top of the hierarchy and, guess what?.... one of them was the god father Anu or An ( major roles are as an authority figure, decision-maker and progenitor)... I keep wondering what the "sat" prefix must have meant for the Assyrians... Sat-An...

[Jackalope]

He didn't ask to murder. He asked to offer as a burnt offering.

You're splitting hairs. Completing the act would mean that Abraham intentionally killed Isaac at the command of Yahweh.

And God stopped Abraham from completing it. It was to test Abraham, not because God wanted to kill indiscriminately.

According to the story, an angel stopped Abraham from killing his son.

Your god is a dick.

[Tonus]

Yeah, it would have been murder. It was also just a story to show faith though, so no biggie...

That's how I saw it. Later texts made me wonder why god did that. We're told that god can see into the hearts of men, which I took to mean that he could see our motivations and understand our mind. Which means that he didn't have to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, he knew that Abraham would've done so before he even asked. And Paul later writes that Abraham knew that Isaac was part of the lineage that would produce the nation of Israel, and that god could resurrect him.

So the story became one where god asked Abraham to sacrifice his son just for the sake of seeing if he had the stomach to kill him for kicks. The JWs saw the near-sacrifice of Isaac as a metaphor for the later sacrifice of Jesus. Which thus makes that sacrifice seem very creepy. And now I'm wondering why people seem to think that if you become an atheist, you suddenly have no moral center and might do all sorts of evil things.

[Whateverist]

So the story became one where god asked Abraham to sacrifice his son just for the sake of seeing if he had the stomach to kill him for kicks.

And that raises the question for me: did Abraham pass the test or fail it?

The JWs saw the near-sacrifice of Isaac as a metaphor for the later sacrifice of Jesus. Which thus makes that sacrifice seem very creepy. And now I'm wondering why people seem to think that if you become an atheist, you suddenly have no moral center and might do all sorts of evil things.

Good point.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Abraham and Isaac, hmmm...tough puzzle and probably the most perplexing and disturbing one of all. What strikes me about it is this. Child sacrifice was a practice found in Canaan. Abraham would not have been surprised that a typical god would make such a request. God's bait and switch seems to me like a way to 1) test Abraham's obedience, while at the same time 2) setting worship in a different direction and 3) revealing to Abraham the difference between the Lord and the gods of other nations. Those are just my thoughts...not terribly profound given the subject.

[Godscreated]

---

At some point in the future He will, soon IMO, when He does it will be to late for those who have rejected Him. They will wish He had waited longer, for those of us who have accepted Him well we are ready anytime. God has made appearances at the Genesis, while forming Israel as His people, then when Christ was born, these appearances were roughly 2000 years apart, it's been 2000 years, so who knows could be soon.

---

[yoda voice]Always in the future, it is...
Always soon it is, in the believers' view [/yoda]

Why will it be too late? It's not like it was too late for the people who formed Israel, nor for Moses...
And you are ready for what exactly?
And how came you about this knowledge?... or did it stem only from your view of some "periodical" appearance of this god thing?

If there is such a thing as a god, and it wants me to acknowledge its existence (as you believers claim it does), then I await its introduction, just as it introduced itself to those biblical characters. Until then, I see the god thing as a story in a book.

This is non-belief: not accepting what you people say nor what is written in some book about some incredible, supernatural entity, as representative of reality.
If the entity is real, then let it step forth and show itself to all. While it only shows itself to some people's minds, it will be dismissed as hallucination or similar.

Will you keep threatening me with those future comings of the unsubstantiated deity or just keep to your deceitful (or deceived?) tongue to yourself?

I did not threaten you, I gave you what I know from scripture, sorry if you took it as a threat.
It will be to late because of a limit God put on time.
I'm ready for Christ's return and an end to the insanity of the world outside of Christianity, for a relationship with God unimaginable.
It's in scripture.
there are no future comings, only one and then the end.

[Ryantology]

Abraham and Isaac, hmmm...tough puzzle and probably the most perplexing and disturbing one of all.

It is only a tough puzzle if you are incapable of admitting that you worship a psychotic and controlling asshole. Once you do that, the whole story makes perfect sense.

'Free Will', as Christians seem to understand it, is an invention by apologists to attempt to shift responsibility for everything that is not good in the world from the creator of everything to that creator's hapless victims.

[Godscreated]

---

At some point in the future He will, soon IMO, when He does it will be to late for those who have rejected Him. They will wish He had waited longer, for those of us who have accepted Him well we are ready anytime. God has made appearances at the Genesis, while forming Israel as His people, then when Christ was born, these appearances were roughly 2000 years apart, it's been 2000 years, so who knows could be soon.

---

Hey GC, you mind telling us all why your god is so hooked on people believing in him before they have a good reason to? Why's he being so bratty?

He desires all to be saved, he's already given everyone a reason and it's to bad you do not care to be loved.