(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote: I guess I really can't do anything if you don't' believe me ...

The facts tell a story Ray. Why not post a place holder saying you'd get back?

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote: my point still remains correct that Arab Jews and Christians have been calling God "Allah" for centuries, which you denied earlier.

So you're taking a very biased source as fact. I don't. Point not proven. Allegation still denied.

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote: And I am not convinced by the counter arguments at all ... sorry, pal.

How surprising. I hope you rationalised both sides fully to come up with your own thoughts. I'm sure we can all trust that.

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 7, 2013 at 3:28 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Well your Wikipedia link says differently. "Some scholars trace the name to the South Arabian Ilah, a title of the Moon god"

You left out the important part

No. That was the important part which directly contradicted your assertion.

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 7, 2013 at 3:28 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: And I explained to you the Christian response to that, which you thanked me for. Unlike in Islam, Christianity is consistent with Judaic theology. This speaks volumes to me about your claims of flawed interpretation. But I'm not here to argue with you about it. I have merely stated that there are differences. Islam has a vested interest in making God and Allah the same. You have to argue it I guess.

No problem if you don't want to argue about it. I don't have much interest in arguing about that either, so ... let's just save our time.

Then why are you trolling me here??

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 7, 2013 at 3:28 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You touch upon the simple difference betwen our faiths, the trinity, but fail to address the meat of the argument: the evolutionary step I refer to, mentioned above.

You mean that God came down to earth in the form of a man and then crucified himself on a cross and then came back to life just to make a sacrifice?

Whoa, dude. That really is a great evolutionary step.

Right. You don't begin to understand. No problem.

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 7, 2013 at 3:28 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The Judaic God and the Christian God are identical, from the Old Testament. the interpretation of the trinity causes some post interpretation perhaps, but the reading is exactly the same. Jesus as a Jew links directly to Judaism and Judaic law. There is no misheard approximations as found in the words of Mohammed... the trinity of the the father, mother and son, for example.

I disagree because according to the Old Testament - just like in Islam - it is considered to be a great blasphemy and a sin to attribute Jesus as being God Himself or anything of that sort. To the Jews and Muslims, Jesus was only a Prophet of God, nothing else. And he didn't come to earth to perform any kind of a sacrifice on himself for anyone's sins. However, one of the core beliefs of Christianity is the death of Jesus/God as an "atonement" for sins. That is one of the central beliefs of Christians today which are in contradiction with Muslim and Jewish beliefs.

Yeah, you don't get this either. Sure, our faiths reach very different conclusions (see the tables). But what Xtianity takes from Judaism is unadulterated Judaism, with the addition of a Jewish interpretation if the messiah was to appear. Some Jews would argue that Jesus didn't fulfil their exact prophesies, but Christians, and Jesus, showed how those prophesies did indeed apply.

Now this is very different to what Mohammed did to Judaism. He took Judaism and erm... changed it but didn't add anyting to it. In fact his version is Judaism made worse. Allah takes on attributes that contradict the Judaic God. And to what end?

:: video's I can't watch from here ::

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 7, 2013 at 3:28 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Christianity isn't a 3rd party bolt on. It's a continuation from the source material.

Well, if it's really a continuation, and if the Gospels are unchanged and if everything is translated correctly from the original Hebrew, then there shouldn't be any contradictions between the OT and the NT, but there are. You can see some of those contradictions and inconsistencies between them at the link below:

So let me see if I understand your argument here Ray. You're saying the NT must be a fake because it contradicts some of the OT?

So you missed the memo where Jesusaid he came to interpret the laws correctly? Rabbi's confirm this. Christ says that he changes nothing of the law, but comes to re-interpret it to it's original meaning.

Once more, as it doesn't seem to be sinking in: the Christian Bible OT is not an attempt to re-write the OT. The point is to takee the original text.

Of course Jews don't accept that Jesus was the Messiah. they wouldn't be Jews if they did now would they? I do know Jews that converted to Christianity too.

The NT isn't the OT extended addition. It's the OT fullfilled by the messiah it fortells.

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 7, 2013 at 10:10 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Let me get this straight... are you saying that the Christian God and Allah are the same god or not?

Yes, but just not the same as the altered and re-defined "Christian God" whom you believe became the man Jesus.

Yes. Get over it. The Judaic father God is identical to God the father, God the holy spirit and parts of God the son that Christians understaind from the OT.

(May 8, 2013 at 5:21 am)Rayaan Wrote: There is even some evidence that the first Christians did not worship Jesus as God:

Those were cults Ray. Yes, a few people got it wrong. That's also addressed in the Bible with letters to those churches.

LMAO! Are you for real? Have you even looked at how different the Christian version of the Abrahamic God is from the Jewish version of it? One is all "I'll burn you in a vat of lava for all eternity because I'm a nasty cunt and I hate you all!!!!" And the other is all loving and forgiving and newborn-baby-kitten-like.

Islam has it's own version of the same god. It is still the same god. The same one that Abraham first worshipped. Unless you're suggesting that Abraham met two Gods? How many Gods are there supposed to be in your opinion anyway?

Another thing you keep doing that's annoying is talking about the Trinity as if it is a basic Christian belief. No. The Trinity isn't something all Christians believe. So stop it.

Is this "trinity" bull crap stolen from the Celts (with little or no understanding) and their triune gods?

(May 8, 2013 at 12:07 pm)NoraBrimstone Wrote: LMAO! Are you for real? Have you even looked at how different the Christian version of the Abrahamic God is from the Jewish version of it? One is all "I'll burn you in a vat of lava for all eternity because I'm a nasty cunt and I hate you all!!!!" And the other is all loving and forgiving and newborn-baby-kitten-like.

Do you even read what people write on this forum Nora?

(May 8, 2013 at 12:07 pm)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Islam has it's own version of the same god. It is still the same god. The same one that Abraham first worshipped. Unless you're suggesting that Abraham met two Gods? How many Gods are there supposed to be in your opinion anyway?

Not from the conclusions muslims draw from that God. Allah has conflicting attributes. Go ask a Jew.

(May 8, 2013 at 12:07 pm)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Another thing you keep doing that's annoying is talking about the Trinity as if it is a basic Christian belief. No. The Trinity isn't something all Christians believe. So stop it.

There are indeed non trinitarian Christians. But a Christian, as widely adopted, described on the wiki page for Christianity, and commonly referred to by the vast majority of people, and is the one actually adhered to by the 3billion people that like to call themselves Christians, is someone that believes in the trinity.

So Ray... are you still participating in this discussion? Or have you abandoned it now?

From the comparison tables, one item in particular interests me... Islam doesn't agree with Christianity and Judaism that the Adam and Eve story describes the human condition, ie fallen man.

This is what I mean when I say that Islam disagrees fundamentally with the understanding of the source text. Christianity is a perfectly acceptable translation of the source given the appearance of the Messiah... the fulfillment of the OT. What you have in Islam is a conflicting theology. One that does not and could not add up to Jews. Added to which is the conflicting ideas of what constitutes the central deity.

Mohammed wrote down the exact words of Allah as it was dictated to him (well he got someone else to write it who could write of course), where the Christian/ Judaic bible is not. Yet we have glaring inaccuracies in the text like the misunderstanding of what Christianity was about. Allah, then, didn't know everything?! Plenty of basic contradictions easily upheld doesn't help me to start trusting anything from Islam.