(May 16, 2013 at 6:01 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Why would anyone want to change other people? Bit rude, isn't it?

What if the person I seek to change is exceedingly rude and my somewhat rude attempt to change the bastard is aimed at reducing world rudeness?

(May 16, 2013 at 10:42 am)The Magic Pudding Wrote:

(May 16, 2013 at 6:01 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Why would anyone want to change other people? Bit rude, isn't it?

What if the person I seek to change is exceedingly rude and my somewhat rude attempt to change the bastard is aimed at reducing world rudeness?

That would be a noble cause of course!

No, no, no, no...we absolutely may (find better use). Plenty of people are working on that right now. The thing is, what constitutes as -better use- may be production of even more crops that are unsuitable for human consumption but can be processed -by livestock or other means- to increase the overall pool of nutrition available to human beings. This process is currently being hobbled, in some ways, by ill informed activists - but ultimately the core of what we might hope to address is an entirely seperate issue (that also has people working on it). Any increase in one area likely comes at a cost in another. If we produce more food here - we're mining more fertility there, essentially. Often one imagines that any given current or developing food production tech or method or dietary choice is the more ethical one by focusing on what we see "here" and ignoring what happens "there".

While I would agree that for you, given your opinions of livestock production - vegetarianism is the more ethical decision - so long as you can maintain it (you're fortunate here) - sadly, a great deal of the suffering or damage you hope to avoid or curtail by making this decision continues unimpeded "there" to produce the very products you are choosing in favor of. Not that I think this devalues your choice personally - as there's very little that you can do about it...it does make it difficult to throw the blanket over everyone.

(May 15, 2013 at 8:10 pm)ideologue08 Wrote:

(May 15, 2013 at 6:37 pm)futilethewinds Wrote: I'm a vegetarian for ethical reasons, but I don't try to control others' behavior. As Gandhi said, "Be the change you wish to see in the world." I live it, I don't preach it.

If you really cared about it, then you'd preach it as well, just living it simply is not good enough.

Thanks for providing a clear example of what is wrong with fanatics like you.

(May 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(May 15, 2013 at 8:10 pm)ideologue08 Wrote: If you really cared about it, then you'd preach it as well, just living it simply is not good enough.

Thanks for providing a clear example of what is wrong with fanatics like you.

Hahaha LOL ok. It's fanatical to preach something, one must keep their opinions to themselves at all times. Just don't get a career in politics.

(May 16, 2013 at 12:53 pm)ideologue08 Wrote:

(May 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Thanks for providing a clear example of what is wrong with fanatics like you.

Hahaha LOL ok. It's fanatical to preach something, one must keep their opinions to themselves at all times. Just don't get a career in politics.

No. It is fanatical to believe that preaching is a necessary condition to caring, as you did.

It is not.

You are of course welcome to your own opinion. It's when you attempt to foist your values upon others at the expense of their own that lands you in the fanatic's camp.

(May 16, 2013 at 1:49 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(May 16, 2013 at 12:53 pm)ideologue08 Wrote: Hahaha LOL ok. It's fanatical to preach something, one must keep their opinions to themselves at all times. Just don't get a career in politics.

No. It is fanatical to believe that preaching is a necessary condition to caring, as you did.

It is not.

You are of course welcome to your own opinion. It's when you attempt to foist your values upon others at the expense of their own that lands you in the fanatic's camp.

It is a necessary condition, it's no good shutting the fuck up. So you think speaking out against child abuse is fanatical? Having anti-war protests is fanatical? If I see something wrong, I will speak out, not just sit there like a fat oaf you fucking lazy git. Why don't you follow your own advice and stop preaching then? Wanker.

Are you comparing child abuse and war to eating meat? Seiously?

(May 16, 2013 at 6:01 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Why would anyone want to change other people? Bit rude, isn't it?

What? That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying you should convert people to vegetarianism. I'm saying, if one is a vegetarian because they don't like the idea of eating the poor animals, or they're in any way disgusted by the idea of animals being killed, then they can go protest or lobby or petition or do something to benefit that. But I've seen way too many vegetarians think they're better than others because of their diet, which does nothing for what they think it does.

The reason I said this is because you quoted Ghandi's "be the change" line. You're not being the change. You're just being a vegetarian.

(May 16, 2013 at 7:37 am)littleendian Wrote:

(May 15, 2013 at 8:48 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: Like I said in my post further up on this page, you're not being the change. You're just not eating meat. That's not changing anything for anybody besides yourself.

Even if you completely leave aside the animals for whom it actually does change something whether they're killed or not, so even if you focus only on humans: A vegetarian diet has repeatedly been demonstrated to be less harmful for the environment, so it does change something for the quality of life of our current and future generations.

You're telling me that your dietary changes, individually, are helping the environment? Can you tell me how?

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(May 16, 2013 at 2:07 pm)ideologue08 Wrote:

(May 16, 2013 at 1:49 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: No. It is fanatical to believe that preaching is a necessary condition to caring, as you did.

It is not.

You are of course welcome to your own opinion. It's when you attempt to foist your values upon others at the expense of their own that lands you in the fanatic's camp.

It is a necessary condition, it's no good shutting the fuck up. So you think speaking out against child abuse is fanatical? Having anti-war protests is fanatical? If I see something wrong, I will speak out, not just sit there like a fat oaf you fucking lazy git. Why don't you follow your own advice and stop preaching then? Wanker.

Wow, what shitty analogies.

(May 16, 2013 at 2:39 pm)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Are you comparing child abuse and war to eating meat? Seiously?

Remember what you are dealing with here, Nora.