(June 3, 2013 at 3:39 pm)John V Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Rationalman Wrote: Oh so, if it wasn't against the law, you would own slaves would you?

LOL - an appeal to emotion from self-named Rationalman. Too funny.

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That has nothing to do with emotion. Where did you get that from? Its a question of morals. It seems your bible says slavery is OK and also says it isn't. If slavery was suddenly made legal, would you go and buy a slave?

(June 3, 2013 at 1:39 pm)Drich Wrote: Your not taking in the time period, or you simply do not understand this very simple statement.

The feeding of the 5000 was not a matter of charity. It was to proove TO THOSE PEOPLE That HE/Jesus Possed the Power and Authority of God.

I think you have a point, Drich; but so-called miracle-workers were a dime-a-dozen in that region and time. It was easy to convince people you were divine or connected to the divine with a flashy miracle or clever prophecy.

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(June 3, 2013 at 2:44 pm)catfish Wrote: Watch how many atheists display their cherry-picking skills, watch...

I admit mine are not superior to yours.

(June 3, 2013 at 4:33 pm)Rationalman Wrote: That has nothing to do with emotion. Where did you get that from?

From the way you phrased it. By putting it directly on me, rather than phrasing it as a societal moral issue, you were trying to elicit an emotional retreat.

(June 3, 2013 at 5:06 pm)John V Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 4:33 pm)Rationalman Wrote: That has nothing to do with emotion. Where did you get that from?

From the way you phrased it. By putting it directly on me, rather than phrasing it as a societal moral issue, you were trying to elicit an emotional retreat.

Consider this a side question, then: Your point seemed to be that Christians don't keep slaves because they're instructed to obey the law, and now slavery is against the law. Therefore it is consistent for Christians not to keep slaves.

The implication is that if it weren't against the law, maybe some Christians would keep slaves with the idea that it's biblically okay. I think that is what prompted Rationalman's question. Perhaps we are misunderstanding you?

(June 3, 2013 at 4:48 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I think you have a point, Drich; but so-called miracle-workers were a dime-a-dozen in that region and time. It was easy to convince people you were divine or connected to the divine with a flashy miracle or clever prophecy.

You've given him too much credit. One of the major themes of the NT is that Jesus does not set out to prove that he is god. It seems to be an area that the character lacks any interest in whatsoever. Meanwhile, the character is often busy in establishing theology and re-purposing older narratives (this narrative is a very direct reference to David). To put it plainly, Jesus is made to be a never ending source of "bread". Not physical bread....spiritual bread. The only source of this bread, in fact. Drich's alternate exegesis of the story is only offered up to support his own preoccupancy with some authoritarian narrative (a narrative which is completely out of line with the feeding of the multitudes). It ignores the elements of the narrative that make it effective, and opens the narrative to severe criticism (ask him why the disciples were so surprised that jesus just poofed something into existence.....after having just poofed something into existence a few chapters earlier - and the chorus sings and sings...) where none is warranted.

In short, it shits on one of the few competent narratives in the whole of the NT.

Now is this traditional exegesis of the story accurate? Who knows, but best as we can tell this is what the author was hoping to convey with it - regardless of whether or not it was supposed to be factually accurate or merely a vehicle - it serves it's purpose in conveying that message......unless someone is devoted to writing their own message over it - which is okay by me.

(June 3, 2013 at 4:20 pm)meak Wrote: Only because the questions are light and you can find some reference for it. Just a fun exercise: Try explaining these questions without saying the words "Gods Plan" or "Faith"...
1-Why did Jesus never write anything?
2-Why do bad things happen to good people who are super-religious?
3-How old was Mary when she had Jesus?
4-If human's were made in God's image, then does God have any of the following: nose, teeth, lungs, nipples, penis? And what would he use them for? What color is his skin?
5-Do the mentally ill have free will and why did God make them that way?
6-Why was not a single mention or word EVER written about Jesus by anyone who was alive at any time during Jesus' supposed life-time?
7-Why does God like some people in Oklahoma and not others?

1- Why would He need to when the gospels were going to be written not too long after?

2- We live in a fallen world. Not to mention, trials make us stronger (James 1) whether you are religious or not, you should know that. At its base, you are appealing to the PoE. Which, of course, is not a very good argument.

3- Why does it matter?

4- This is a silly question. Humans being made in God's image has nothing to do with physical attributes. God is immaterial.

5- I don't know. I'm not omniscient (yes, "I don't know" is a proper answer).

6- An argument from silence is not a very good argument. You have to explain away: the gospels, mentions of Jesus by Josephus, Tactitus and other secular historians from the late 1st century, why Christian communities started to spread like wildfire from AD 33-50 (if Jesus wasn't a real man, and the gospels weren't written yet, then this seems highly unlikely), why the disciples would die for a myth, Paul's writings (especially 1 Corinth 15), and historical circumstances contemporaneous with Jesus’ public ministry... Just to name a few.

7- You are begging the question. The Bible makes it clear that we are all loved equally by God.

Never used the words "God's plan" or "faith." I win.

(June 3, 2013 at 6:55 pm)Pandas United Wrote: 1- Why would He need to when the gospels were going to be written not too long after?

Would have definitely helped to clear some things up though, eh?

Quote:2- We live in a fallen world. Not to mention, trials make us stronger (James 1) whether you are religious or not, you should know that. At its base, you are appealing to the PoE. Which, of course, is not a very good argument.

We live in a what again?

Quote:3- Why does it matter?

It would help to add credibility to the narrative - inclusion of facts and whatnot.

Quote:4- This is a silly question. Humans being made in God's image has nothing to do with physical attributes. God is immaterial.

Strangely humans are not (immaterial) - images are, of course...very material - by any meaning of the word. Maybe this one is just a misunderstanding?

Quote:5- I don't know. I'm not omniscient (yes, "I don't know" is a proper answer).

Hehehe, I'm starting to like you.

Quote:6- An argument from silence is not a very good argument. You have to explain away: the gospels, mentions of Jesus by Josephus, Tactitus and other secular historians from the late 1st century, why Christian communities started to spread like wildfire from AD 33-50 (if Jesus wasn't a real man, and the gospels weren't written yet, then this seems highly unlikely), why the disciples would die for a myth, Paul's writings (especially 1 Corinth 15), and historical circumstances contemporaneous with Jesus’ public ministry... Just to name a few.

To be fair, the gospels only require "explaining away" the rest is easy - you have fantasies, we all do. I guess that handles the gospels just as easily though, so meh.

Quote:7- You are begging the question. The Bible makes it clear that we are all loved equally by God.

There's a guy here that agrees that the bible is very clear on this count as well - except that he feels that it's very clear that god doesn't equally love all of us (and that god doesn't love a great many of us -at all-). I don't know, but that doesn't sound-at a glance, like we have a situation of clarity.

Quote:-Why did Jesus never write anything?

Because he was an illiterate bastard?

More likely that he never existed at all.

(June 3, 2013 at 4:48 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I think you have a point, Drich; but so-called miracle-workers were a dime-a-dozen in that region and time. It was easy to convince people you were divine or connected to the divine with a flashy miracle or clever prophecy.

How many of those prophets/ their religions from the time of Christ are still around?

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(June 3, 2013 at 1:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Which it would have failed horribly to do - had it been anything other than a fairy tale, because the conclusion you hope to reach doesn't follow.

Understand?

In the most exhaustive of readings the feeding of the multitudes is a (very clever) narrative device, why do I care more about your ghost stories than you do? You seem to be inordinately preoccupied with power and authority, why is that?

because you ask question who's answers are based in power and the authority of God. I can only speak to what you all ask.

(June 3, 2013 at 11:41 pm)Drich Wrote: How many of those prophets/ their religions from the time of Christ are still around?

A wonderful testament to our technological ability, specifically in the arena of annihilating each other.

Quote: because you ask question who's answers are based in power and the authority of God. I can only speak to what you all ask.

I asked a question about you, in typical fashion you interpret it to be a question about god - I've been mentioning this to you all along....