(June 12, 2013 at 9:57 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 12, 2013 at 9:49 am)Doubting Thomas Wrote: So you're admitting that it's a false prophecy?

Where do you read that?

I simply said it could not be a future event based on the current nations in the world. (Plus there was a time frame in which God spoke)

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(June 12, 2013 at 9:56 am)little_monkey Wrote: But the NT means nothing without the OT.

How do you mean?

Jesus (NT) came to redeem humanity because of Adam's original sin (OT).

Regarding Jesus’ birth—Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Micah 5:2: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Concerning Jesus' ministry and death—Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” Psalm 22:16-18: “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

Likely the clearest prophecy about Jesus is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Isaiah 53:3-7 is especially unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”

The “seventy sevens” prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 predicted the precise date that Jesus, the Messiah, would be “cut off.” Isaiah 50:6 accurately describes the beating that Jesus endured. Zechariah 12:10 predicts the “piercing” of the Messiah, which occurred after Jesus died on the cross. Many more examples could be provided, but these will suffice. The Old Testament most definitely prophesies the coming of Jesus as the Messiah.


And so on.

(June 12, 2013 at 9:54 am)Drich Wrote: Hmm, God Of The Bible Is the God I worship, so How do you think He Communicates?? Or Maybe where do you think you should start to look for what The God of The Bible Wants You to do?

I don't know how he communicates, thats why I asked. Didn't he talk through a burning bush before or something? So what you are basically saying is that you read the bible, had a good feeling about it and so decided to believe in it. God did not contact you in any way?
Again, i notice you didn't answer my question

(June 12, 2013 at 10:02 am)Faith No More Wrote:

(June 12, 2013 at 9:39 am)Drich Wrote: Is it you experet opinion that everyone who calls them self christian actually are? Doesn't God have a say in the matter or do you think an all powerful God is bound by some chant/sinners prayer or ritual?

No, it is my "experet" opinion that Christians will quickly go to great lengths to discredit the sincerity and validity of an ex-Christian's beliefs rather than consider that their religion failed someone.

(June 12, 2013 at 9:39 am)Drich Wrote: What about what Jesus said in Mt 7:21-23? Where those who call themselves christian and did many christian things call out to Jesus on that final day, and He says depart from me you evil doer I never knew you.

Neat.

The really neat part about Mt 7 is that Christ Himself makes that statment. In that not all who call themselves Christian are indeed followers of Christ. If person "A" creates a God or a parallel religion based on Christianity, but is not the version of Christianity found in the bible, then how is it your estimation that they are indeed worshiping the God of the bible? Especially when the see and know the differences between what God had recorded and what they themselves have decided to do because they simply do not agree with what is in the bible?

And, if that person is knowingly not worshiping the God of the bible then how can that person expect to have any interaction with the God of the bible? In otherwords why would God positivly reinforce a view of Himself that He did not want believers to have?

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(June 12, 2013 at 10:04 am)little_monkey Wrote:

(June 12, 2013 at 9:57 am)Drich Wrote: Where do you read that?

I simply said it could not be a future event based on the current nations in the world. (Plus there was a time frame in which God spoke)

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How do you mean?

Jesus (NT) came to redeem humanity because of Adam's original sin (OT).

Regarding Jesus’ birth—Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Micah 5:2: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Concerning Jesus' ministry and death—Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” Psalm 22:16-18: “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

Likely the clearest prophecy about Jesus is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Isaiah 53:3-7 is especially unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”

The “seventy sevens” prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 predicted the precise date that Jesus, the Messiah, would be “cut off.” Isaiah 50:6 accurately describes the beating that Jesus endured. Zechariah 12:10 predicts the “piercing” of the Messiah, which occurred after Jesus died on the cross. Many more examples could be provided, but these will suffice. The Old Testament most definitely prophesies the coming of Jesus as the Messiah.


And so on.

...So redemption is found in the NT because the OT points to it?
-or-
Does one have to first convert to OT Judaism in order to be a follower of Christ?

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(June 12, 2013 at 10:33 am)Rationalman Wrote: I don't know how he communicates, thats why I asked.

The God-OF-THE-BIBLE... If the God of the Bible is the God being worshiped then it can only be through the bible that His will can be decerned.

Quote:Didn't he talk through a burning bush before or something?

to one man. This was an exception and not the rule (As that man lived before anything was written.)

Quote:So what you are basically saying is that you read the bible, had a good feeling about it and so decided to believe in it. God did not contact you in any way?

http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html

Quote:Again, i notice you didn't answer my question

Your mistaken. You have an answer just not the one you were looking for.

(June 12, 2013 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 12, 2013 at 10:04 am)little_monkey Wrote: Jesus (NT) came to redeem humanity because of Adam's original sin (OT).

Regarding Jesus’ birth—Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Micah 5:2: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Concerning Jesus' ministry and death—Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” Psalm 22:16-18: “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

Likely the clearest prophecy about Jesus is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Isaiah 53:3-7 is especially unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”

The “seventy sevens” prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 predicted the precise date that Jesus, the Messiah, would be “cut off.” Isaiah 50:6 accurately describes the beating that Jesus endured. Zechariah 12:10 predicts the “piercing” of the Messiah, which occurred after Jesus died on the cross. Many more examples could be provided, but these will suffice. The Old Testament most definitely prophesies the coming of Jesus as the Messiah.


And so on.

...So redemption is found in the NT because the OT points to it?
-or-
Does one have to first convert to OT Judaism in order to be a follower of Christ?

Explain to me again why Jesus, the alleged son Of God, had to die on the cross???

Drich Wrote:The really neat part about Mt 7 is that Christ Himself makes that statment. In that not all who call themselves Christian are indeed followers of Christ. If person "A" creates a God or a parallel religion based on Christianity, but is not the version of Christianity found in the bible, then how is it your estimation that they are indeed worshiping the God of the bible? Especially when the see and know the differences between what God had recorded and what they themselves have decided to do because they simply do not agree with what is in the bible?

It is my "estimation" that Christians make a decision about a person's beliefs without having enough knowledge to truly judge if their beliefs were genuine.

Drich Wrote:And, if that person is knowingly not worshiping the God of the bible then how can that person expect to have any interaction with the God of the bible? In otherwords why would God positivly reinforce a view of Himself that He did not want believers to have?

How many Christians do you know that knowingly worship a god that is not represented by the bible? Every Christian thinks they have the correct interpretation.

(June 12, 2013 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote: http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html

Are these stories meant to be some sort of proof that god talked to you. Well i'm sorry but they are not evidence of anything. They are not demonstrable to anyone else and they cannot be repeated. And didn't you say that god can only talk to you through the bible, but you said he did in your hallucination. Or was it that you cannot understand him unless its in the bible? To be honest I didn't really bother properly reading your stories because I instantly knew there would be no point. It is evidence for you but not for anyone else

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(June 12, 2013 at 12:36 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

(June 12, 2013 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote: http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html

Are these stories meant to be some sort of proof that god talked to you. Well i'm sorry but they are not evidence of anything. They are not demonstrable to anyone else and they cannot be repeated. And didn't you say that god can only talk to you through the bible, but you said he did in your hallucination. Or was it that you cannot understand him unless its in the bible? To be honest I didn't really bother properly reading your stories because I instantly knew there would be no point. It is evidence for you but not for anyone else

Only just finished reading both your stories and i have come to the conclusion that you are either a liar or schizophrenic. Don't you think it a little odd that when any religious person dies and comes back they see what they believe e.g. Christians see heaven and God, Muslims see allah and paradise. I think you are suffering from schizophrenia, please go get your head look at

(June 12, 2013 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote: The really neat part about Mt 7 is that Christ Himself makes that statment. In that not all who call themselves Christian are indeed followers of Christ. If person "A" creates a God or a parallel religion based on Christianity, but is not the version of Christianity found in the bible, then how is it your estimation that they are indeed worshiping the God of the bible? Especially when the see and know the differences between what God had recorded and what they themselves have decided to do because they simply do not agree with what is in the bible?

Like the part where Jesus insists that his followers adhere to Mosaic law until Heaven and Earth are gone, but then you interpret this very clear and repeated command to suggest that what he really meant was that you don't even have to bother trying because you want to believe that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness, so that's what will you insist he's actually saying, because you either find Mosaic law to be too barbaric and your God-given conscience balks at fulfilling about half of what is demanded of you, or because the strength of your faith in the eternal is not strong enough to overcome your desire to not spend the rest of your finite life in prison. You're choosing to interpret the Bible in such a way that makes it easier on you; you can say to yourself that you worship the God of the Bible, but your worship of the Bible is every bit as tailored to your own desires as every other Christian I've ever known, and according to yourself, practicing your faith that way is only going to lead to Jesus looking at you when it is time for your judgement and telling you that you said all the right things but you did not even bother making a token effort to uphold the commandments as he requested in his sermon, therefore, your love for Christ was really nothing more than selfish piety, looking out for yourself before Christ, and you'll end up in hell right along with all of us.

(June 12, 2013 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote: In otherwords why would God positivly reinforce a view of Himself that He did not want believers to have?

Wouldn't this handily explain why the "god of the bible" is nowhere to be found? Perhaps our imaginary god doesn't wish to reinforce that woefully ignorant view of itself?

(June 12, 2013 at 12:23 pm)little_monkey Wrote:

(June 12, 2013 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote: ...So redemption is found in the NT because the OT points to it?
-or-
Does one have to first convert to OT Judaism in order to be a follower of Christ?

Explain to me again why Jesus, the alleged son Of God, had to die on the cross???

Be more than happy to if and when you answer my question.

I've always found that particular bit to be so very telling. Christians like to say that you don;t have to "convert" to judaism to be a christian - but it's a hollow distinction. You have to believe in the same god, who did the same horrid shit, from the same horrid texts. The only functional difference between the two is that the christians just couldn't stand the thought of following all those inconvenient rules.

So I suppose, since we're imagining gods in this thread...we could imagine one that says "fuck the rules" just as easily as any other.